Quote: Original post by HostileExpanse
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As has been mentioned, the main problem with schools in the country is the parents seeming disinterest in their child's education.

I'm a bit curious, are there scheduled meetings between teachers and their the parents of their pupils? Like, say, every other month? There are here. In these meetings parents and teachers can discuss just about everything: success of their children, complaints and praises, suggestions, school bullying, excursions (and which of the parents are willing to participate) etc.

One of the current complaints over here is that parents are working too much. Essentially one (or both) of the parents is skipping these meetings. Or that the parents aren't teaching their children to behave, but leave it to the schools and then they come to school displeased if they get a note their children have misbehaved.

I think one difference is that here the teachers have quite a lot of freedom on how to organise their teaching and consequently choose more freely the method with which they feel more comfortable teaching. They have a set of predefined set of subjects that has to be taught, but otherwise the methods can be chosen somewhat freely within in the bounds of allowed (and educated) ones.

All this wouldn't work if there were, say 35 students per teacher in one class and too many classes. In the UK, for instance, there are way more pupils per teacher (ironically, the situation is reversed in university).

<edit
Typos, clarifications...

[Edited by - Naurava kulkuri on July 20, 2009 8:43:13 AM]

Quote:

Quote: Original post by Naurava kulkuri

">exam 50 years ago:)

I think the purpose of the Bologna Process is to make the different educations systems comparable so that, for instance, a Masters degree awarded in Finland is recognised elsewhere in Europe (like in France) and vice versa. It is somewhat problematic to hire people from abroad if you don't know what their educational credentials mean.

In Russia (end not only) Bologn process cause the replacing our education system with Europian-i mean replacing normal exams with "Unified state exam" (in form of test).Teachers and scientists strongly against it,a lot of them has an experience of work in Europian universities and know real situation.This is a movement in one direction-you must have western sertificate or good bye. Moskow University has almost constant place (~70 th) in world ratings,but who makes this ratings? And who can believe it now,if the world crisis was caused (at least partialy) by the same false ratings in economy? My opinion-we must spit to Bologn and other degrees...

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It is somewhat problematic to hire people from abroad if you don't know what their educational credentials mean.

It's very simple.In our company students have a practice before graduation (diploma),solves some tasks without assistance and then stay for further work.Or din't stay.Some "solid gaps" in education are not a problem,it may be because of bad teachers,but we are testing aptitude for education.Sometimes it's even better.

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On the topic of computers. At least here it's not allowed to use calculators or notes in basic mathematics courses, for instance.

I spoke merely about "hi-tech" cribs.BTW, possibility to choose right answer from multiple in test-it's a kind of crib too.

[Edited by - Krokhin on July 20, 2009 6:43:29 AM]

Quote: Original post by trzy
I don't mean to convey the false impression that I was a particularly gifted, studious, or tenacious teenager, locked up in his room with a math book while everyone else was playing spin the bottle. I read and played around on the computer (programming) in my spare time, but learned actual mathematics and science at school. Had compulsory public education at the high school level not existed, my parents would certainly have forced me to learn or go to school. I believe this will be the case with virtually all middle and upper class households who realize the importance of education.

As I said in another recent post, there are valid concerns about the very poor and those whose cultures do not emphasize education and intellectual activities as much as others'. It's certainly possible that one local equilibrium state is a society full of uneducated, unskilled, dirt-poor, starving laborers. That's not what we want.

I think what you are going for, then, is tracking. This word and concept have become a huge 'no-no' in the education system for years now. It's essentially illegal in almost any form, though arguably would solve countless problems and improve the whole system. If you haven't ever watched the HBO series The Wire season 4 addresses the issue very well.

">Best preview clip I could find (foul language warning)

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I don't know what the solution should be. I think at the very least, we should begin making smart choices about teachers unions, private alternatives, and alternative educational paths for smart children as well as the extremely problematic cases. What do you think of this series of three articles on education by Charles Murray?

I'll definitely take a look at it when I get the chance later today.

Quote: Original post by trzy
I'm about to embark on a three week trip so forgive me if I don't follow up with a more detailed rebuttal, but very quickly, my understanding is that problems are emerging in large Canadian cities. The examples of Korea and Japan are obviously irrelevant due to cultural differences and demographics. I also believe there was an article about the IQ of British students declining in recent decades. Isn't Britain in dire financial straits right now with its crappy social programs? Food for thought.

No, that's just another evasion. There are countries that outperform us - problems and all - and maybe we should take a look at what they do and see if any of it is applicable to our system.

Systems are hard to build. Advocating scrapping a functioning, if flawed, one without suggesting an alternative is irresponsible. The programmers among us know this maxim as "refactor, don't rewrite." Of course, sometimes a rewrite is necessary, but at that point you know precisely what the limitations of the existing system are and what prescriptions you are going to apply to fix them in the rewrite.

Cultural differences and demographics do not make the examples of Japan and Korea irrelevant. We are going to be competing with them in the same global marketplace, and we teach our children - ostensibly, at least - the same mathematics and science.

You're too quick to dismiss things.

Quote: Original post by code4fun
If you haven't ever watched the HBO series The Wire season 4 addresses the issue very well.

">Best preview clip I could find (foul language warning)

Seconded. That was a great season.

Quote: Original post by Krokhin
In Russia (end not only) Bologn process cause the replacing our education system with Europian-i mean replacing normal exams with "Unified state exam" (in form of test).

I know the Russian system is a bit different. We have only a few nation wide exams, otherwise the only thing matters is that the children are taught a core set of subjects some people somewhere have deemed is good for them.

Quote: Original post by Krokhin
Teachers and scientists strongly against it,a lot of them has an experience of work in Europian universities and know real situation.This is a movement in one direction-you must have western sertificate or good bye.

Taking natural sciences and mathematics as an example, a really loud cry here is that PISA measures wrong things! There's some tug-of-war between people gearing education more towards PISA-like skillsets and people gearing education to, well, some other directions. :) I tend to agree that PISA measures somewhat wrong things considering mathematics, for instance.

Quote: Original post by Krokhin
Moskow University has almost constant place (~70 th) in world ratings,but who makes this ratings?

I wonder if the problem is even bigger in our universities, which are even smaller. :) It's quite intriquing to notice that there probably is a bias on quoting publications that are written by people in, say, MIT, which are essentially the same as publications written in less known universities.

Also, here it's in the law the universities should benefit the society. Essentially it means also publications in Finnish the added factor being that for time to time someone should explain things in a language that is understood by the great public. The field of medicine, for instance, is doing a good job at it. These publications take time and they do not end up in indexes anywhere, even if they are good studies. On occassion someone translates them. I don't blame the scientific community for not learning Finnish though. :)

Some complain it time to time that the system is somewhat flawed. On the other hand, my university is doing a lot of things to ESA, there are some top-notch medicine, laser and optics fibre research, signals research, algorithms research etc., international recognitions and awards given and we have students coming from far-away places so on and on, no reason to really complain. Still, our universities are ranked, well, I don't know if they even are ranked. :-P

Quote: Original post by Krokhin
And who can believe it now,if the world crisis was caused (at least partialy) by the same false ratings in economy? My opinion-we must spit to Bologn and other degrees...

One of the main problems here was somehow figure out how much to give credits on some perceived amount of credits based on assumed average student work-load. In the process someone discovered, naturally, that we have too much studies! Concerning engineering grades: Too many languages! Too much project assigments. Too this and that! Essentially it is impossible to get through a Finnish univeristy system in the same time as in most other countries.

What comes to this current world crisis, I don't think the Bologna process has anything to do with it. It started earlier already. To digress a bit, it has been suggested that the methods and attitudes taught in elite business universities are contributing to the problem.

Quote: Original post by Krokhin
It's very simple.In our company students have a practice before graduation (diploma),solves some tasks without assistance and then stay for further work.

We have a mandatory eight weeks of relevant work as part of MSc education. But in fields like software engineering virtually everyone have years of experience before graduating. Besides, I've programmed a lot as part of the coursework too (stuff like plug-ins to Eclipse, algorithms etc.).

We have a probation time also.

Quote: Original post by Krokhin
Or din't stay.Some "solid gaps" in education are not a problem,it may be because of bad teachers,but we are testing aptitude for education.Sometimes it's even better.

Teaching factors in. So does the people. I feel there are far too many people who just don't care for what they are doing at work. People who are willing to learn new things (and are quick to learn), are preferred.

Quote: Original post by Krokhin
I spoke merely about "hi-tech" cribs.BTW, possibility to choose right answer from multiple in test-it's a kind of crib too.

Mm, true. Unless there are something like six alternatives, -1 for a wrong answer and a requirement of 50% of total points to pass with a lowest grade. :-) If you did look a those numerical analysis questions, they contained a lot of "Explain, why method xyz works". I feel like... aren't accepted. But anyhow, it was just simple "food for thoughts" kind of a link...

Though I know how it's in Russia and our courses are on average easier. Except those closer to graduation. They are as difficult here as they are there.

P.S. Do you mean MGU? I visisted the main building like three years ago and got lost there. I had to ask a couple cuddling each other in the dark behind some pillars a way out. :-P

[Edited by - Naurava kulkuri on July 20, 2009 8:54:40 AM]

Quote: Original post by tstrimp
Only those who can afford it have a choice. Just like only those who can afford it get top notch preventative health care here in the USA. I wish a program like No Child Left Behind could work in this country. It's designed to let you move your child from a sub-par school district to a good one regardless of which side of the tracks you live on.

NCLB is the single worst thing to ever happen to education in my lifetime. There's a lot more to it than the concept of "school choice" but since that's the aspect you bring up, there are plenty of problems with that alone. Let's start with the idea that our system is based on the concept that every child deserves the opportunity to succeed. When you make it easy for students to go to whichever school they want, then all of the more educated parents (often translating in to the richer families) send their children to the more "highly performing" schools (which is in and of itself highly questionable considering the absurdity of the tests these rankings are based on).

Sounds great, right? But when each of these students goes, they take with them a certain amount of money. These "good" schools can then become even better, while the "bad" schools get worse, leaving all the students (whose parents are either too dumb or are too busy working 3 jobs to figure out this brilliant education system) to rot in completely underfunded, "failing" schools. The rich and the smart get smarter. The dumb and the poor get dumber and poorer, and the gap gets wider. And if, ideally, ALL students were to wake up and go to the 'good' schools and not the 'bad' ones, then why aren't we just making EVERY school a good one to begin with? Why is mediocrity ok at any school?

I like the idea of tracking, within a school. Tracking whole schools? Whole districts? What if the schools in my town aren't as good as the schools in the town 2 hours away? Do I get a bus ride over there on taxpayer dollars? Where's the line, and why can't we just improve education at every site instead of a select few?

Quote: I wish there were a way to reliably tie teacher pay and school funding to performance. Unfortunately all it does is cause teachers and schools to game the system. Forcing the test material down students throats over and over instead of teaching the students how to learn.

I agree. The problem here is in defining "performance". Test scores where the students are half asleep coloring in bubbles that don't apply to their lives at all? Bad choice, as you've pointed out. This is why I'm such a Montessori advocate. The idea there is based on more subjective and useful results such as portfolios, interviews, and projects that demonstrate a real comprehension of multiple subjects. The problem then goes to the fact that how do you nationally "standardize" such subjective evaluations? You can't. So now suddenly parents and community members have to be responsible for making sure their schools are teaching their kids anything of value instead of falling back on the national government to print results based on their ridiculously expensive and detrimental testing techniques. What a concept.

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Fixing the system isn't simply a matter of more money and higher teacher pay though. As has been mentioned, the main problem with schools in the country is the parents seeming disinterest in their child's education.

Dead on. How do we teach parents to be parents? Should we incorporate these skills in to our education system in order to create a cycle of better parenting? Right now it's fairly in vogue to criticize our education system. And rightfully so, it's a mess. But so long as it's cool to hate the system instead of helping to make it better, parents are still going to fight it, whine about it and not care enough to do their part in making it better.

Quote: I don't think that higher teacher pay is the answer. Tech jobs generally pay pretty well and I'm sure you've all seen the deluge of idiots joining the programmer ranks because it pays well. And since there is no performance metric in place for teachers, the losers just looking for the money will flock to that career and the teachers unions will make sure that they keep their job no matter how incompetent they really are.

I don't think higher teacher pay is necessarily the answer here either. But it does need to become easier to fire the idiots, and the job needs to earn back the respect of the general population. It's too easy to just sit back on cruise control, play movies and still get paid as if you're actually teaching something. Right now, the only incentive for teachers to actually teach is if they have a conscience.

Concerning PISA, I didn't know the U.S. was scoring that low. Does anyone know if it's customary in the U.S. for the educational authorities to make trips to other countries to gather experiences? It seem to be the system is somehow decentralised according to the state lines, but there's a common coordinating authority, "Ministry of Education" (the U.S. doesn't seem to be on the list).

<edit
I see, SEA.

Quote: Original post by code4fun
I don't think higher teacher pay is necessarily the answer here either. But it does need to become easier to fire the idiots, and the job needs to earn back the respect of the general population. It's too easy to just sit back on cruise control, play movies and still get paid as if you're actually teaching something. Right now, the only incentive for teachers to actually teach is if they have a conscience.

I can only speak about the Australian system (specifically in Victoria), but IMO a big part of the problem is that the pay scale is very flat for a teacher's career. The starting pay for a graduate teacher is actually quite nice, but it only trickles up slowly throughout their career. This is essentially because the job is essentialy the same. A senior teacher might have more responsibility with some extra leadership roles, maybe teach a few more classes, but it's similar to what is expected of a graduate teacher. From what I remember, pay doesn't get more than double what you start.

This means that if a good teacher wants more pay, they either have to switch to the principal track; management, which gets them out of the classroom. Or they have to switch careers. A lot of businesses know that being a good teacher equates very well to being a good middle manager. Getting double the pay for an easier job with better promotion prospects is extremely tempting. When you factor in the stress, the politics and the bureaucracy that gets in the way of teaching, there's a lot of teachers burning out and changing jobs.

That said, I'm also not sure that higher pay is the answer either. I'd consider maybe having more teachers with less contact hours, more time for lesson preparation and more support staff.

Quote: Original post by Naurava kulkuri
Some complain it time to time that the system is somewhat flawed. On the other hand, my university is doing a lot of things to ESA, there are some top-notch medicine, laser and optics fibre research, signals research, algorithms research etc., international recognitions and awards given and we have students coming from far-away places so on and on, no reason to really complain. Still, our universities are ranked, well, I don't know if they even are ranked. :-P

Well,I concidered MGU like an example.In my opinion it has very nice mathematics department only,MS bosses very like to visit it,but that's all.In reality the best education is not there,but in "institutes",it's closer to colledges( 5-6 years,determined speciality,best teachers, without possibility to choose the set of teachers/lecturies/subjects) Afaik,they are not represented in such ranks at all.And it's very strange,because ( for instance) Moskow Phisical-Technical institute is one of the best.

Quote:
What comes to this current world crisis, I don't think the Bologna process has anything to do with it. It started earlier already. To digress a bit, it has been suggested that the methods and attitudes taught in elite business universities are contributing to the problem.

It was simply an analogy.I just want to say that "international" organisations sometimes use very fuzzy criteria for their "ranks".Sometimes they takes part in "big game" at international markets of trade,finance,labour force etc.Just another one market "tool".Peoples from former SU may has a job and without western kind of diploma ,no problem.But their salary will be mush less[smile]