Quote: Original post by Dmytry
That's a very generic pro-kgb/stasi/whatever argument. All the way until you get it as bad as stasi was, you can go on how it is not as bad as stasi. In fact even when it gets as bad as stasi was you could still go on how it is different.

I my opinion comparing Germany's government with Stasi is a slap into the face of the victims of the former GDR's regime. You are putting my words into a context I never used them in. We are nowhere close to a point where even thinking about such comparisons could be subject of an objective discussion.

Find and join a pressure group which shares your opinions. Even if you don't change things in one night, you will at least make people aware of what's going on. Our Government doesn't block sites yet, it's just trying extremely hard to rob us blind, using the EU as an excuse. All we need now is a poverty tax.

Quote: Original post by Waterwalker

Quote: Original post by Dmytry
That's a very generic pro-kgb/stasi/whatever argument. All the way until you get it as bad as stasi was, you can go on how it is not as bad as stasi. In fact even when it gets as bad as stasi was you could still go on how it is different.

I my opinion comparing Germany's government with Stasi is a slap into the face of the victims of the former GDR's regime. You are putting my words into a context I never used them in. We are nowhere close to a point where even thinking about such comparisons could be subject of an objective discussion.

So. I have relatives living in russia. Where the situation with KGB (now renamed as FSB) is as bad as always, with usual rhetoric that "you cant compare it to KGB because its different". (Heck, Russia had a president and has a prime minister who is ex-stasi. Nice, isn't it)
That's why I call it generic pro-KGB rhetoric. It is very telling that you had to resort to such old generic argument used to justify anything new police does all way until its as bad as the old secret police you're referring to, and even beyond because new is obviously different. Heck, you can use it as pro-stasi argument just nice, comparing it to SS.
Obviously, your new police and lawmakers cant be entirely like stasi because it is democracy now and they're doing overall what average people want. (SS was mostly doing what majority of people supported, too)
Average people, evidently, are after child porn (but don't give a damn about child abuse itself, which would get harder to track without reliable, well timestamped evidence on internet). Your government, as always, is after increasing control over people, and seem to use CP as noble cause.

Actually, lemme tell you what. If not for that 'exaggregation' that you seem to dislike so much, there would've been no nice democracy in your country now. Shouting that its nowhere near as bad as stasi gets you a long way to point when it is almost as bad. Stasi was established to among other things break your will to defend your rights, and they did succeed - those oppressed by stasi would gladly accept any form of Orwellian crap as long as it isn't literally identical to stasi.

[Edited by - Dmytry on May 9, 2009 3:00:53 AM]

I would add that comparing the "former USSR - Russia" with the "GDR - FRG" is not valid as well. In Russia things were (as far as I can tell) just renamed. Regime got renamed elected government, KGB got renamed FSB, dictatorship got renamed democracy, and so on. With respect to Germany the GDR got more or less dissolved as well as Stasi that got charged and dismounted by the people. While it holds true that lots of politicians of the former GDR regime are now part of a new party and are still around to get voted they do not stand a real chance to get a say in where our country is headed.

That is why in my opinion the OP was just trying to vent some of the pressure he feels about those suggested bills our politicians set up now for their campaigns because most of them are just quick hip shots not aimed at the real problems. He just got his choice of waords and comparisions wrong in my opinion.

I would worry a lot more about the economic things at the moment such as the bonus our government currently pays to people who wreck their old cars to buy brand new ones. This just moves the crisis for the local car industrie a few months to the future.

So ranting is okay as long as you have valid arguments and comparisons.

Quote: Original post by Waterwalker
In Russia things were (as far as I can tell) just renamed. Regime got renamed elected government, KGB got renamed FSB, dictatorship got renamed democracy, and so on.

Such an interesting thought [smile]
Do not confuse SU-> Russia "conversion" and attaching GDR to FRG,this are different things at all.The main changes in Russia were deep inside,I mean changes in the reason of people in 1980's,wherever this people worked- KGB,police and so on.What do you mean saying "just renamed"? Following your wishes we had to begin a civil war,or what? Civil war in state with nuclear weapons-it's very interesting,but may be Chernobyl will be enough for you?
I can compare also Stasy and KGB,but let me to keep my rate here [smile]
------
PS I don't hate Germany,it's wonderful country.I had to spent in GDR two years in youth (army service),but recall that time with a great pleasure.

Quote: Original post by Krokhin
Such an interesting thought [smile]
Do not confuse SU-> Russia "conversion" and attaching GDR to FRG,this are different things at all.

That's what I wanted to say [smile]

By "renaming" I was referring to the fact - which might be wrong since I have not lived through those times in Russia (nor at any other time for that matter) - that there stayed the same people, partys, special polices, and so on. They changed what already existed into something else. The GDR dissolve included shutting down what existed. The secret police got shut down, its informal agents were named public, people got access to their records the police filed about them, politicians were removed from power, army officers got degraded to plain soldier ranks, and so on. That's the difference I wanted to point out by using the phrases "renamed" versus "dissolved".

Quote: Original post by Waterwalker
By "renaming" I was referring to the fact - which might be wrong since I have not lived through those times in Russia (nor at any other time for that matter) - that there stayed the same people, partys, special polices, and so on. They changed what already existed into something else. The GDR dissolve included shutting down what existed. The secret police got shut down, its informal agents were named public, people got access to their records the police filed about them, politicians were removed from power, army officers got degraded to plain soldier ranks, and so on. That's the difference I wanted to point out by using the phrases "renamed" versus "dissolved".

Yes,I'm sorry and now understand.Let my previous post will stay here as an argument, or I can delete it,no problem.
The simular problem exists in relations between Russia and Belorussia-talks about "united country" continue by many years.It is possible in reality,but even a question about common currency causes a lot of problems, and attaching/dissolving seems me more complex process than simple reforming.

[Edited by - Krokhin on May 9, 2009 8:07:23 AM]

Quote: Original post by Waterwalker

Quote: Original post by Krokhin
Such an interesting thought [smile]
Do not confuse SU-> Russia "conversion" and attaching GDR to FRG,this are different things at all.

That's what I wanted to say [smile]

By "renaming" I was referring to the fact - which might be wrong since I have not lived through those times in Russia (nor at any other time for that matter) - that there stayed the same people, partys, special polices, and so on. They changed what already existed into something else. The GDR dissolve included shutting down what existed. The secret police got shut down, its informal agents were named public, people got access to their records the police filed about them, politicians were removed from power, army officers got degraded to plain soldier ranks, and so on. That's the difference I wanted to point out by using the phrases "renamed" versus "dissolved".

you guys had western germany to help you dissolve and replace things.

My point tho was that your rhetoric is far too generic and common, and is just as much used when the change amounts to renaming.

Germany seems to be far too uptight on many things. Censoring video games (the German Return to Castle Wolfenstein apparently had a totally different plot to the rest of the world because they had to strip out the Nazis and have it as a generic zombie fest or so I'm told at least; similarly, Call of Duty has all the voices in German including the Allies and has the Iron Cross subbed in where the swastika was), attempting to ban paintball, the whole issue with Nazi imagery (although I can fully appreciate their thinking on that one and am not complaining) and now stuff like this.

I can't believe that such a modern, dynamic society can be so pedantic and anal about things.

Well, now im calmed down. ;-)

I know that i was a "little bit" to harsh and that my words were not well choosen. I know that germany is not the worst country in the world nor in europe, that was not my point. But I'm really worried that it goes into the false direction. I'm not telling that we're after this election in DDR 2.0 or something like that. But the way the current government goes is, in my opinion, wrong.

@Watermaker
I've signed the petition against this form of censorship we're more than 73000 people haved signed until now. As you maybe know it is possible to mail persons from the Bundestag directly, but the responds that I've got so far were very frustating which was the reason why I've been so angried. Either they sent a standard message were they told much but said nothing or they did'nt answered at all. Some years ago I've sent to someone (don't know anymore who it was but he was from my electoral district) and he shoutet around that I have to write the mail with my full address and my full name. Well I don't see a reason why I have to enter my full address, and that he wasn't capable to read my name made me a little bit confused. I've been on demos in the past (not much, and about another topic) and I go to demos when its possible for me to go there.

And here is an interview, with von der Leyen. In that interview she said that everybody should think about people who can avoid this ban, this is accomplished with DNS-Banning, and that those people are those 20 percent(!) of people in the internet who abuse children. I don't know from were she've got this number but this is defamation of every netwerk-guy in germany and everyone who is "capable" of changing DNS-Server.

Sorry, but that is Stasi rhetoric.

And the most unconstitutional person, in my opinion, in our government is Wolfgang Schäuble. Many time when a bill that he has submitted got denied he propose to change some paragraphs from our basic law (constitution).

And to clarify: I don't hate this country but I dislike this government very much, and I go to the elections this year to try to change something.