Eh, what insults?

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Original post by Ikatsu Once again, I'm not replying to everyone bashing me, and I'm not looking for instant gratification. I understand if you don't agree with my views, but I ask that you don't be rude or blunt in doing so, or try to do so on a nice, constructive-criticism level.

Who is bashing you and not providing constructive criticism? Pretty much every post I've read seems pretty constructive to me. (unless the negative posts were deleted or something) I think you're taking "being rude and blunt" out of context. People trying to explain why your ideas have flaws doesn't make them rude...

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If you think there are reasons why these things haven't been implemented in games, or reasons why there might be complications: kindly tell me.

I think everyone has done a good job at explaining (in broken down lists even) why things haven't been implemented. I think you're just ignoring people's posts at this point because you feel hurt that your ideas aren't being praised.

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But I don't understand how a heated discussion/argument can get started up over a bunch of ideas, which, who knows if they'll come true.

Am I missing something? What heated discussion? Nobody here appears to be heated (aside from yourself) I'm beginning to think you posted this thread with full knowledge that people were going to shut down your ideas and then you'd be able to play the victim/moderator to your own thread.

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I think that it is you guys who should stop taking opinions and ideas seriously, because it's getting on my nerves. :/ Calm down, take a happy pill, and cheer up emo kid? If you can make assumptions about me, I can very well do so about you. I happen to like what I took the time out to write, and this is also why I don't join many forums.

If you don't want people to take you or your ideas seriously, then why bother posting? Again, I along with others are interested in the reasoning behind you even posting this thread if you didn't want people to comment on your ideas.

Also, calling people "emo kid" is not going to earn you brownie points with anyone. In one sentence you say people are getting on your nerves and the next you're telling people to calm down. I think you're the only one here who is getting emotional in this thread.

Your reasoning for not joining forums is because you like your ideas and don't like other people explaining why they won't work? I sure hope you don't plan to actually become a designer as a profession because you'll get this sort of thing on a daily basis. Take it with a grain of salt, try to learn from people's advice... weed out the good from the bad and move on.

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10/10 times I posted ideas that I thought, or opinions. Even a random post that was about neither, and I still get bitched at? Come on, now. I won't ever care if you don't like me, but I will care if you're being rude and blunt to me when I said nothing to offend.

Again, who is being rude to you? Also, opinions and thoughts still have meaning behind them. You act as if your opinions and thoughts are greater than other people's opinions and thoughts. Just because someone's opinion is that your ideas are crap, does not make their opinion less valid than your idea. To each their own. They are just opinions after all, right?

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People are taking this post way~ too seriously, and need to stop ranting to me if they don't like something I said. This post is for a defense, not a fuel to the fire.

Not a good idea to call people emo kids, tell them to calm down and stop being serious and then say "this post is not to fuel the fire" I think that's what this post is exactly.

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Arguments are petty and are of no value to me, so cut the crap, guys. what are you trying to accomplish by spamming my post with insults? Nothing. It'll still remain, and I'll still feel the same.

What insults? I still am not seeing these insults.... Also, if you're so keen on preaching about opinions being not a big deal, why are you getting bent out of shape over other's opinions of you and your ideas?

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Bottom line: share, but not in a rude manner. I won't listen if it insults me, either. Might I repeat what I said earlier of: play nice?

So the bottom line is, sugarcoat everything and either agree with your opinions or suggest other ideas that don't directly change your own? Isn't this exactly the opposite of constructive? You're not learning anything if everyone just agrees with you.

Also, you will continue to read posts even if they insult you. Don't bother saying you won't. It seems you came here with the intent to cause drama and be a victim. I've seen it before... it won't be the first time nor will it be the last.

On a final note... I will state what pretty much everyone else here has said about your ideas yet you refuse to let sink in.... Your ideas are neat and cool and awesome... except they are not realistic in terms of development, hardware/network restrictions, and many of your ideas are lacking in structure... they are more like wishful thinking and less like sold game ideas that could be implemented into a game.

Your entire post is merely the wishlist of a person who has played a handful of online rpgs and doesn't understand anything about programming/art/business or the production process in general. You've got a lot to learn and I implore you to listen to what people are saying because they have far more experience in the matter than you do.

Thanks for reading, I hope you don't take my post as negative or bashing you or insulting you. I'm only trying to help.

Ikatsu: part of the reason why this thread isn't going too well is that it's largely unfocused; you've presented us with a giant post full of ideas each of which could have a thread full of discussion on it's own. To go through it all and discuss all those ideas in a constructive and detailed manner would be very time consuming; and so people are tending to give you short, to the point, blunt responses. I'd recommend breaking your threads down into more specific discussions for the future; it works much better that way.

I'd also agree with Malazar in that you would probably benefit from broadening your horizons a little. Play those popular MMORPGs that you scoff at, because they're popular, they must be doing something right. If you can figure out what that something is, you can build on it; otherwise you're flailing wildly in the dark. You are also missing out on systems that might actually allow you to put some of your ideas to the test. Try playing on some Neverwinter Nights (1 or 2) Persistent Worlds, as many of your ideas may be implemented to some degree. You may even be able to join a PW team and implement some of them yourself.

Good luck.

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I think that it is you guys who should stop taking opinions and ideas seriously, because it's getting on my nerves.

This forum is all about taking ideas seriously. The idea is that you come here with rough ideas, you take them seriously and then you leave with polished ideas that can actually be drawn and programmed. Doesn't always work, but that's the idea. :)

A couple obvious misunderstandings jump out at me. Firstly, the only "insults" I read were simply repeating exactly what you told people not to say. That's pretty universally considered kind of a purposefully bad joke...an ice-breaker if you will. Everything after that is constructive criticism...until you became defensive. When you act like prey, that's when predators attack! Wavinator said it as well as I could, so I won't harp on this too much. Basically, we're trying to help you become a game designer instead of an idea-maker-upper.

Secondly, when people say you should play those other games to find out what makes them popular and try to emulate that, they don't mean that you should simply clone the features. There seems to be intangible qualities about some games that make them popular. Part of playing these games with an observant eye is trying to figure out what it is, trying to see something that the designer perhaps stumbled upon that nobody has been able to duplicate. Many qualities are well-defined, including game balance (StarCraft is widely considered one of the best in this area), graphics (great graphics don't make the game much better, but poor graphics can ruin it), and even advertising budgets.

Some popular games may not even have any of these. Think of Tetris...very basic graphics, completely random (and thus not very balanced). And who has ever seen a single advertisement for Tetris? But it is inarguably fun. Maybe it satisfies some basic human psychological need for order. Maybe it's just that it provides a sense of continual accomplishment. Maybe it appeals to our nostalgic side, reminding us of a simpler time in our lives. Maybe all of the above. Whatever the case, this is basically what other people are trying to tell you to think about and look for in other games. Figure out what makes games fun, and exploit that to the maximum extent possible. I happen to find programming fun, but this is a far from universal feeling. You might find that virtually infinite customization has a major impact on how much enjoyment you can get out of a game, but is that a significant factor in a game's popularity? How much customization would be "enough" for your players to be happy?

I read through your ideas and felt that they would result in a clone of the typical MMORPG and nothing innovative. :(

As someone who has been playing MMORPGs for more than 10 years (starting with MUDs), I am sick and tired of the current cookie cutter design of MMORPGs. I was rooting for WoW to be something different but it turned out to be the same old thing that has exists in MUDs since more than 10 years ago! Grinding, PvP, Quest, Skill system, Class system, Crafting...the same old thing.

What I think we need is something truly innovative. But practically the chances are low because few investors are willing to fund "risky projects" that are different from the "tried and proven".

For example, Quake 4 and Doom 3 are essentially the same game with different graphics and story. (in my opinion of course) While Left 4 Dead is a welcome break from the usual FPS cookie cutter.

But then again, the number of MMORPG players have been growing throughout the years; we had around 1 mil subscribers back then in '98 and 16 mil now! (ref : http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart4.html ) What might seem old and boring to veterans like us are probably NEW and EXCITING to newcomers. Especially the millions of first time MMORPG players who joined WoW.


Of course, everything I said above are not "facts" or "truths" but the opinions of one player who has zero ability to make an MMORPG like WoW.

Ikatsu, part of the issue I have with some of what you've suggested is your constant usage of the word "fair." A lot of what you've mentioned doesn't fit that word properly.

Were the games that had you pay real money to buy items or features that "should have been in the game" free to play otherwise? If so, this is what the developer is using to generate revenue.

Personally, I play FFXI. It's fairly masochistic in its design approach (though getting easier as the years go on, as SE has seen that people want an Easy Mode these days). Then, you have a game like WoW which is designed for a more casual crowd. On the one hand, you seem to want a game in which everything is given to you (you called it "fair"). On the other, you state you want a game that's not easy, but not hard. Why can't it be both?

If you make a game that's easy, you won't keep people around. They'll finish all content quickly. Should the game be made too difficult (in whichever way you want to define "difficult" -- be it genuinely hard, too skill-based, cheap, etc), people will quit. A good and balanced MMO should be designed with both the hardcore and casual players in mind. But the rewards should certainly be scaled to the difficulty of the quest or mission at hand.

I guess I take some amount of offense to the "have your cake and eat it, too" train of thought. Just as in real life, an MMO should reward you for the actual effort you put into it.

Except for maybe Hello Kitty Online Adventures.