Original post by loufoque The main problems are because the world is entirely static ... I believe the solution is to make the world dynamic.
...
All in all, you end up with a game that is not unlike real life.
loufoque, I really like what you've described about the static world vs. more dynamic world when it comes to MMOs. This is pretty much the same conclusion I came to myself.
That last sentence is also true, which is kind of ironic.
Original post by Ikatsu IF YOU HAVE ANYMORE TIPS TO IMPROVE MY VISION, PLEASE SHARE WITH ME. THANK YOU.**
Quote:
Original post by Ikatsu I happen to think that these ideas would revolutionize MMORPGs as we know it, so I won't change or modify anything for anyone else.
Original post by loufoque The main problems are because the world is entirely static ... I believe the solution is to make the world dynamic.
...
All in all, you end up with a game that is not unlike real life.
loufoque, I really like what you've described about the static world vs. more dynamic world when it comes to MMOs. This is pretty much the same conclusion I came to myself.
That last sentence is also true, which is kind of ironic.
The problem is that the real world is not sustainable. Your depletable mineral veins will be completely mined out. Your forests will be stripped bare. It won't take very long, either. Established PCs will hoard all of the wealth, and new players will have to scramble across the continents that have already been picked bare, scrounging for what little might be left.
Actually, that sounds pretty badass. I guess you end up with either a post-apocalyptic game in pretty short order, or you have to restart the world periodically.
(Incidentally, I'm trying to create basically what you described in my web-based game. I'm currently preparing it for relaunch. The interesting thing was that the players sort of separated themselves out into conservationists and industrialists in previous runs.)
Ikatsu, hey, this sounds awesome, i was thinking of about the same ideas, I am 16, so i have time to learn, I would like to join you to make that mmo, I have lots of ideas and have been playing video games since i was little. I have checked out lots of mmos and play a few also, I want to someday create an mmo like that so i will try to do what ever to make an mmorpg, I have been learning java for awhile and i am gonna start learning C, so... ya, i would like to help you in making this game because i know i cant do it alone and i am disappointed that there has not been a mmo with features like these, peace!
The problem is that the real world is not sustainable. Your depletable mineral veins will be completely mined out. Your forests will be stripped bare. It won't take very long, either. Established PCs will hoard all of the wealth, and new players will have to scramble across the continents that have already been picked bare, scrounging for what little might be left.
Humanity has been exploiting forests and mines for thousands of years and everything is still not totally depleted.
Also, materials should be able to be recycled somehow. Just like in the real world, the "nothing is created, nothing is lost, everything is transformed" principle should be followed. So you can take an existing sword and extract its metal, in case you're having trouble finding ore.
Plus, if vegetation grows over time, the resource is sustainable.
Original post by loufoque Humanity has been exploiting forests and mines for thousands of years and everything is still not totally depleted.
Also, materials should be able to be recycled somehow. Just like in the real world, the "nothing is created, nothing is lost, everything is transformed" principle should be followed. So you can take an existing sword and extract its metal, in case you're having trouble finding ore.
Plus, if vegetation grows over time, the resource is sustainable.
Earth has a land area of roughly 150,000,000 square kilometers. The largest virtual world that I know of in terms of land area is There, with an area of 630 square kilometers. If it were as densely populated as Earth is, there would be roughly 16 people living there.
We are running out of easily accessible mineral resources here on real Earth. Metal prices rise because, as time progresses, the marginal cost of extraction increases.
The exploitation of forests for lumber has serious ecological consequences and we are being more responsible now in some ways than we ever have, but it's not a solved problem. The nutrients that trees pull from the soil are removed from the local environment when you cut the tree down and ship it away somewhere else. Normally, things that die return their nitrogen to the ground. My kitchen table can't do that - it'll more likely than not ultimately end up in a landfill somewhere.
Recycling is never lossless. Minimally, there are energy costs associated with it.
*edit*
Start a new thread on this. Call it 'realism in MMOs' or something. It's an interesting topic of discussion but I don't know that this thread is the appropriate place for it.
reykjavik, it's still just a virtual game, so it's not a problem to make trees grow to full size in 10 days rather than hundreds of years to compensate for the smaller acreage.
I must say, having read your post, and the comments made by others, I agree almost entirely with Telastyn, some of your ideas seem to lack an understanding of most features. You know what you want to see in a game, which is good, but you seem to be missing the reasons why they aren't like that.
Unique models: There's a reason weapons, armour, NPCs, etc get reused. You can usually fit a current MMO client, with all the compressed models and other graphics/sound files as well as all the game files onto a DVD. and that's when they have the little spider, the bigger spider, the huge spider, the green, red and blue spiders all using the same model. and that's just the practical issue for the distribution and installation, you've gotta get an artist to design them, a different artist will probably be doing the textures, and a third one will do the modelling. Now, how much do you think this little art team will cost to make one model, and how long? that's a while, since there's all the animations and jazz as well, now, multiply that by how many NPCs you got. Yeah. Ouch.
Balance: "it'll sort itself out"... no. Absolutely not. That is, in no way, how it works. If something is unbalanced, everyone will do that, then it'll be "balanced" since everyone has the same race/class/item/spell combination, and can all one-shot kill the last boss and everything in a 5-mile radius. But that's not balance, if the warrior has a skill to kill everything with his "ancient axe of killingeverythingintheroom", and the wizard has to bend over and take it like a man, that's not fun, or balance. You need to spend alot of time and effort on balance, ensuring that there are no "I-win" trump cards, make sure that there is not a reason for everyone to play one class/character over all others, etc.
Class/race: ugly charaters? what's wrong with playing an Orc? so you may not want to take him out to dinner, that's not the point, sometimes people want to play the "bad guy" archetype, sometimes brutal looking savages are fun, they can still look good, good looking characters doesn't always mean you want to see them in the cliché chainmail bikini. It means they have a unique style and feel about them. Classes on the other hand, I know what you mean about the D&D style str/dex/wis kind of system, and I love it. Play Knights of the Old Republic, D&D Online, Baldur's gate, Ultima online and RuneScape. These games have similar systems, and less restrictive classes, you can specialise your character as you wish, which usually leads to archetypes developing, for example, in RS you could specialise in a dex-like skill that would mean you hit often and fast, but for only 1-2 damage, wheras someone with a high STR would hit you once every few hits, but you'd really feel it. Min-Maxing is a problem, players who know the system can get the most out of it, those who do not, will be at a disadvantage. There are reasons things are done the way they are.
Snobbery: You eliminate the most successful games from your play-list because they are popular? no, you see, there are reasons they are popular, it's worth playing with them for a while to figure out why this is so. I mean, what was the last press release for WoW? 10 million or something? they can't be doing everything wrong, can they? might be worth figuring out what they got that's so great? Ragnarok, the same, it seems very much like the kind of game you seem to be aiming at in a lot of respects, give it a shot. Non-MMORPGs... well, you can't call yourself a gamer if you play only one genre, and limit that genre down to a few select games. Play an FPS or two, play a few offline RPGs (the aforementioned KoTOR is a good place to start), play a racing game, an RTS, get a feel for different games. Infact I recommend Dawn of War 2, it's got alot of systems similar to an RPG in alot of respects, squad customisation and equipment dropping and such, it's refreshing, and mixes things up a bit, no more "must build a billion turrets then 5 billion "crushinator" tanks and rush into the enemy's base" strategies from the days of old. Play RuneScape. It's butt ugly. I think it'd do you good to see that game. The gathering system seems to be very similar to the one you described. Plus, it's free, so what have you got to lose, bar a few hours of your time. ;)
Economy: once more, a balance issue. every game needs gold-sinks. There's a reason you lose your sword every now and then when you try to add the ultra-stabbing enchantment to it, or whatever, it's because if it wasn't hard, everyone would have one, and, it'd be dirt cheap, gold, dollars, shiny-shells, pretty pebbles, earlobes-of-your-enemies or whatever currency you use in your game will become worthless. Most games, the first time you see a hundred gold you'll feel rich, right? then you play a little longer and realise "hey, that's pocket change, but i'd like to see 1000 gold", and so on. That's going to happen, no matter what. Using three differing examples I know personally, RF Online has a messy economy, things cost millions to buy from players, because farming is so easy, you can more or less do it AFK. WoW has gold sinks all over the place, but in their latest expansion they put in a mammoth mount that costs 19,000 gold. Yeah, 19k. and you know what? lots of people have it. Personally, I still think a thousand gold is alot of money on that game, but hey. Then there's EvE Online. man, is that economy good or what. Almost all games have out of control, or seeping inflation, low level items and materials cost alot to buy from other players compared with when the game started, and the pice is steadily increasing. Not so in EvE. Why? because there are gold-sinks everywhere. doing stuff is expensive, and not very proffitable unless you put in the corresponding time/effort, and every now and then your ship goes boom. and you lose it, and everything in it. Oh yes, none of this "oh noes, my health bar is empty, hurry up and resurrect me so we can carry on", no, death means going out and buying a new ship, and all the bits that make it. That's awesome, they have an economist, and actual propper economist, on staff studying the in-game economy because it's such a good model of a real economy.
To sum it all up: play more, broader selections of games, play those games you don't like, even if it's a free trial, since they're popular, they're doing something right, and sure, the choice not to play them is fine, but, understand why people think they're good. There's a reason lots of people do things very similar to WoW, might be worth asking yourself why. and I'll give you a clue: it's not because they're lazy and just want to copy someone. Play "ugly" games, not to torture yourself, but to see what they have to offer game-play wise. Personally, I think RF online is very pretty. It's also rather bad. Pretty doesn't make good, just like ugly doesn't make bad. I guess what I'm trying to say is - if you want to go into a field, any field, know what's out there, know as much about the subject as you can, rather than saying "I got this Idea, and I'm gonna do it." there may be reasons it's not been done before, and it could cost you alot of time, money and heartbreak to discover them yourself, when you could have just taken a little look around.
Once again, I'm not replying to everyone bashing me, and I'm not looking for instant gratification. I understand if you don't agree with my views, but I ask that you don't be rude or blunt in doing so, or try to do so on a nice, constructive-criticism level. Calling me names wouldn't fit into this category. They were here to be heard, and to be listened to. Look what I get from it. Jeromy, one of the moderators, asked me to help come up with ideas for his project. I'd like to be of help in anyway I can, and if anyone else likes my ideas, they're free to PM me and I'll be more than happy to share more of them.
If you think there are reasons why these things haven't been implemented in games, or reasons why there might be complications: kindly tell me.
But I don't understand how a heated discussion/argument can get started up over a bunch of ideas, which, who knows if they'll come true.
I'm not taking it seriously, just telling others to back up. I'm not taking to heart petty insults, assumptions, or any let-downs others have to give me.
Although few, I thank the people who were nice and told me why things I am visioning have not happened.
At least one idea, I'm sure, someone can agree with me about. I also don't like the fact that I'm being ganged up on by nearly everyone here. Ridiculous, but I'm not crying over it or trying to modify my feelings for anyone else.
I think that it is you guys who should stop taking opinions and ideas seriously, because it's getting on my nerves. :/ Calm down, take a happy pill, and cheer up emo kid? If you can make assumptions about me, I can very well do so about you. I happen to like what I took the time out to write, and this is also why I don't join many forums.
10/10 times I posted ideas that I thought, or opinions. Even a random post that was about neither, and I still get bitched at? Come on, now. I won't ever care if you don't like me, but I will care if you're being rude and blunt to me when I said nothing to offend.
People are taking this post way~ too seriously, and need to stop ranting to me if they don't like something I said. This post is for a defense, not a fuel to the fire.
Arguments are petty and are of no value to me, so cut the crap, guys. what are you trying to accomplish by spamming my post with insults? Nothing. It'll still remain, and I'll still feel the same.
--The human society needs to learn to understand where someone else is coming from, whether they like the idea or not. They also need to learn to not like it in a peaceful way, opposed to an angry and enraged way. If you want me to stoop to your level: I would, but I'm not.
Bottom line: share, but not in a rude manner. I won't listen if it insults me, either. Might I repeat what I said earlier of: play nice?
Original post by Malazar I must say, having read your post, and the comments made by others, I agree almost entirely with Telastyn, some of your ideas seem to lack an understanding of most features. You know what you want to see in a game, which is good, but you seem to be missing the reasons why they aren't like that.
Unique models: There's a reason weapons, armour, NPCs, etc get reused. You can usually fit a current MMO client, with all the compressed models and other graphics/sound files as well as all the game files onto a DVD. and that's when they have the little spider, the bigger spider, the huge spider, the green, red and blue spiders all using the same model. and that's just the practical issue for the distribution and installation, you've gotta get an artist to design them, a different artist will probably be doing the textures, and a third one will do the modelling. Now, how much do you think this little art team will cost to make one model, and how long? that's a while, since there's all the animations and jazz as well, now, multiply that by how many NPCs you got. Yeah. Ouch.
Balance: "it'll sort itself out"... no. Absolutely not. That is, in no way, how it works. If something is unbalanced, everyone will do that, then it'll be "balanced" since everyone has the same race/class/item/spell combination, and can all one-shot kill the last boss and everything in a 5-mile radius. But that's not balance, if the warrior has a skill to kill everything with his "ancient axe of killingeverythingintheroom", and the wizard has to bend over and take it like a man, that's not fun, or balance. You need to spend alot of time and effort on balance, ensuring that there are no "I-win" trump cards, make sure that there is not a reason for everyone to play one class/character over all others, etc.
Class/race: ugly charaters? what's wrong with playing an Orc? so you may not want to take him out to dinner, that's not the point, sometimes people want to play the "bad guy" archetype, sometimes brutal looking savages are fun, they can still look good, good looking characters doesn't always mean you want to see them in the cliché chainmail bikini. It means they have a unique style and feel about them. Classes on the other hand, I know what you mean about the D&D style str/dex/wis kind of system, and I love it. Play Knights of the Old Republic, D&D Online, Baldur's gate, Ultima online and RuneScape. These games have similar systems, and less restrictive classes, you can specialise your character as you wish, which usually leads to archetypes developing, for example, in RS you could specialise in a dex-like skill that would mean you hit often and fast, but for only 1-2 damage, wheras someone with a high STR would hit you once every few hits, but you'd really feel it. Min-Maxing is a problem, players who know the system can get the most out of it, those who do not, will be at a disadvantage. There are reasons things are done the way they are.
Snobbery: You eliminate the most successful games from your play-list because they are popular? no, you see, there are reasons they are popular, it's worth playing with them for a while to figure out why this is so. I mean, what was the last press release for WoW? 10 million or something? they can't be doing everything wrong, can they? might be worth figuring out what they got that's so great? Ragnarok, the same, it seems very much like the kind of game you seem to be aiming at in a lot of respects, give it a shot. Non-MMORPGs... well, you can't call yourself a gamer if you play only one genre, and limit that genre down to a few select games. Play an FPS or two, play a few offline RPGs (the aforementioned KoTOR is a good place to start), play a racing game, an RTS, get a feel for different games. Infact I recommend Dawn of War 2, it's got alot of systems similar to an RPG in alot of respects, squad customisation and equipment dropping and such, it's refreshing, and mixes things up a bit, no more "must build a billion turrets then 5 billion "crushinator" tanks and rush into the enemy's base" strategies from the days of old. Play RuneScape. It's butt ugly. I think it'd do you good to see that game. The gathering system seems to be very similar to the one you described. Plus, it's free, so what have you got to lose, bar a few hours of your time. ;)
Economy: once more, a balance issue. every game needs gold-sinks. There's a reason you lose your sword every now and then when you try to add the ultra-stabbing enchantment to it, or whatever, it's because if it wasn't hard, everyone would have one, and, it'd be dirt cheap, gold, dollars, shiny-shells, pretty pebbles, earlobes-of-your-enemies or whatever currency you use in your game will become worthless. Most games, the first time you see a hundred gold you'll feel rich, right? then you play a little longer and realise "hey, that's pocket change, but i'd like to see 1000 gold", and so on. That's going to happen, no matter what. Using three differing examples I know personally, RF Online has a messy economy, things cost millions to buy from players, because farming is so easy, you can more or less do it AFK. WoW has gold sinks all over the place, but in their latest expansion they put in a mammoth mount that costs 19,000 gold. Yeah, 19k. and you know what? lots of people have it. Personally, I still think a thousand gold is alot of money on that game, but hey. Then there's EvE Online. man, is that economy good or what. Almost all games have out of control, or seeping inflation, low level items and materials cost alot to buy from other players compared with when the game started, and the pice is steadily increasing. Not so in EvE. Why? because there are gold-sinks everywhere. doing stuff is expensive, and not very proffitable unless you put in the corresponding time/effort, and every now and then your ship goes boom. and you lose it, and everything in it. Oh yes, none of this "oh noes, my health bar is empty, hurry up and resurrect me so we can carry on", no, death means going out and buying a new ship, and all the bits that make it. That's awesome, they have an economist, and actual propper economist, on staff studying the in-game economy because it's such a good model of a real economy.
To sum it all up: play more, broader selections of games, play those games you don't like, even if it's a free trial, since they're popular, they're doing something right, and sure, the choice not to play them is fine, but, understand why people think they're good. There's a reason lots of people do things very similar to WoW, might be worth asking yourself why. and I'll give you a clue: it's not because they're lazy and just want to copy someone. Play "ugly" games, not to torture yourself, but to see what they have to offer game-play wise. Personally, I think RF online is very pretty. It's also rather bad. Pretty doesn't make good, just like ugly doesn't make bad. I guess what I'm trying to say is - if you want to go into a field, any field, know what's out there, know as much about the subject as you can, rather than saying "I got this Idea, and I'm gonna do it." there may be reasons it's not been done before, and it could cost you alot of time, money and heartbreak to discover them yourself, when you could have just taken a little look around.
Malazar, you are the only one who seems to get what I wanted.
I wanted others to tell me what might have been wrong with my ideas, and you did so in a kind manner, so I thank you for that. And just to let you know, I wasn't thinking about complications it comes with making some of these things happen, but just producing ideas for the time being. I said I was going to edit this post so that it makes more sense eventually, and more ideas/storyline is added, so that's why you saw some things that weren't going to work, or a lot of effort is made in doing so. But thank you for informing me all of this; it was helpful.
