I'm currently working on the gameplay mechanics for a space opera game a mate and I are slowing working on.

We're both fans of the 'human' way of levelling. Our primary levelling mechanic will be based on the notion that what you do increases your level in that skill area, however we'll also have expensive but quicker ways of levelling such as implants and Matrix-style direct 'injection' of knowledge and skill into the brain.

For example, to have more perceivable control over your ship in combat situations, you should simply fly more and try combat flight more. Focus determines your results.

We have three layers of levelling mechanics; Attributes and Skills and Specialisations.

Attributes are fairly static (depends on your initial choices when creating a character) and resemble 'traits'. These can be modified with implants however they relatively slow as they have to work on the fundamentals of your character not just your knowledge, such as a brain capacity, enhancing memory efficiency and whatnot.

Attributes affect how well your skills are learnt and used. A high Memory attribute will allow your character to learn quicker across a range of different skills. A high Intelligence attribute will aid in scientific and social skills whereas a high Perception attribute will affect your navigation, combat and health skill areas.

Skills have two layers. Seven categories; Navigation, Combat, Leadership, Science, Social, Industry and Health and each have their specialisations. Working on a speciality such as targetting will increase your Targetting skill making it easier to lock on to targets however, it will also slightly increase your overall Combat skill, aiding other areas of that Skill such as effective weapon resource use and whatnot.

This isn't an original idea (games such as the Elder Scrolls use this mechanic) but we believe it'll work fairly well.

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Original post by Way Walker Quote: Original post by Kest Seriously, players who play games that focus on leveling characters are assumed to enjoy the gameplay that goes along with that territory. If they don't enjoy the gameplay that levels up the characters, the game, as a whole, fails. As the designer, there's nothing you can do to fix that. Your idea of fun just doesn't work for them. Didn't we have a discussion not too long ago where that's the point that I was arguing? [smile]

Here, the designer would approve the gameplay as enjoyable. In that topic, we were supposed to be working under the assumption that the gameplay was tedious from the perspective of the designer.

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I don't disagree that players enjoy grinding. In fact, I've said it before that, if a player's doing it, I assume that they are, in some sense, enjoying it. Insofar as the game's goal is to provide an enjoyable experience for that player, mission accomplished. This is something I've witnessed in friends of mine, and even myself.

I think the term is getting confused here. What is a grind that isn't negative? Is it not just goal-oriented gameplay? Just about everyone enjoys that type of gameplay. It turns into something bad when the reward becomes the only motivation the player has to interact with the gameplay. I think we should assume that bad grinding is the only grinding relevant to the discussion.

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The original post started with "As opposed to grinding...". I don't see grinding with style as something other than grinding.

The only way to decrease grinding is to decrease the repetition of gameplay and make the gameplay more appealing. This concept does both. You can play skillfully to fight less enemies to level up the same amount. At the same time, the rewarding of player skill makes the combat more interactive and engaging.

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Original post by Kest Quote: Original post by Tangireon The way I see grinding & leveling is that these should be optional, not required, for you to play a game. The way I see it, leveling should happen as you play the game. Not as a side attraction that you have to diverge your attention for. What ever the center attraction of the game is should provide the most leveling. If players grind in such a game, then they simply don't like the game. Nothing to be done. We definitely can't make all gameplay optional for players who just want to watch the story unfold. The story is there to motivate the gameplay, not to destroy it.

The Witcher used a system where XP for a given monster dropped as the player levelled up. This set an upper limit on the number of profitable kills of any given monster, putting an end to endless grinding.

But then the only remaining way to get level-ups was from completing quests, moving forward to the end of the game.

It was as if the video game was saying "ok that's enough--stop goofing around and get moving."
Doing what, the laundry? Taking out the trash?
The way I see it, there are times when Goofing Around is the motivation for playing a video game.

[Edited by - AngleWyrm on June 4, 2008 12:26:53 AM]

Well I'm not saying there shouldn't be any more grinding or that there should be an experience leveling-off from grinding too much, I'm saying that if you want to do it, then you could, its just that, like a space-fighting game, doing missions would give you loads more profit than grinding would. You could still gain experience from killing enemies without any context (the goofing off), but with context (a mission) you would gain experience from doing that sort of mission, get other benefits, and etc. You would still gain experience from anything that you want to do, its just that missions would be more profitable, and when viewed in the eyes of those who wished to level up more quickly in the first place, would be their primary form of attaining experience (as well as faction benefits too).

Just offering another perspective, why some might enjoy squeezing every last drop from the game. It's definitely different from the player who wants to level-up quickly. Sort of a Turtle or Rush.

Wait a minute, if one were to make missions the primary form of obtaining experience, then wouldn't that just be another form of grinding; rather than the classical grinding of enemies, you would then just grind missions?

However, like the solutions for making grinding enemies more varied that were presented here, mission-grinding would also, like those solutions, provide more varied ways of "grinding" as well. Not only is there more variation with the objectives to gain your exp fix, you could also make it so that depending on how you did that mission (if you decided to ignore their recommendations of handling a hostile mob and did it your own way), you would earn bonuses, or penalties if you did it sub-par. So the achievements system can also be extended here - depending on how you did your missions, your reward, exp, and faction-favor would change respectively.

So basically then, this Grinding Missions idea is another form of Grinding with style / Grinding with Skill, except this one also has a bit more story (more like short-story, or drama) thrown in there.

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Posted by AngleWyrm Just offering another perspective, why some might enjoy squeezing every last drop from the game. It's definitely different from the player who wants to level-up quickly. Sort of a Turtle or Rush.

But you see, here I am proposing Missions not Quests - if Missions are made available to you many times and are dynamic according to supply and demand (such as with a space-fighter game like Freelancer), then taking them will not be as though you are rushing through the game. There could still be Main Quests, which are offered only once in order to progress through a main storyline of the game - these missions are not like the quests, they are more casual, and provide varied experiences during the leveling-up process, or if you just need some money.

They can still be done by the so-called "turtle" players, because they become part of the game experience. Here we then merge the need to level up with the need to experience varied experiences offered by the game, so then more people become catered to at once.

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Originally posted by AngleWyrm The way I see it, there are times when Goofing Around is the motivation for playing a video game.

If a player were to completely disregard the missions (now seriously, the missions should be much more entertaining than those that you've given) and simply do what he likes, should he be rewarded with exp? In the missions system that includes also getting exp from grinding random monsters, yes, but much less than the missions. But should it be the primary form of leveling up?

Well, if the player likes grinding enemies (the goofing off), this system wouldn't reward as much exp as taking on a mission. If the player likes doing missions, then this system would reward more for them.

So in order to bring the two player types together, we need to change this system so that both non-mission goers and mission goers are rewarded equally, its just that both provide different types of play.

But they are sort of rewarded equally, because if you look at it, the time for taking on a mission is sort of like the time for taking on 12 or so enemies in a monster-grinding session. It is only logical to say that taking on a single mission, which lasts much longer, rewards much more exp than killing a single monster does.

So providing missions will indeed provide a different way to level up.

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Originally posted by Kest Quote: Original post by Tangireon The way I see grinding & leveling is that these should be optional, not required, for you to play a game. The way I see it, leveling should happen as you play the game. Not as a side attraction that you have to diverge your attention for. What ever the center attraction of the game is should provide the most leveling. If players grind in such a game, then they simply don't like the game. Nothing to be done. We definitely can't make all gameplay optional for players who just want to watch the story unfold. The story is there to motivate the gameplay, not to destroy it.

Sorry, that was a miscommunication - I meant to imply that Leveling from Grinding should be optional to playing a game (such as for quick practice), focusing more on the grinding part, in that leveling in context with or with the ultimate goal of grinding should be optional, not the sole focus of the game (I posted that late at night). Because if you read the rest of that post, my stance and your stance are basically the same, trying to make experiencing the rest of the game be the goal of the game rather than grinding - and even especially about the story part, for that was the key design goal for the missions idea, to weave story, leveling, and player's experiencing of the world together, so that one does not have to do them separately (thus causing the MMO pattern of the Grind and the Main Quests).

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Originally posted by Kest What is in the dungeon that leveling up beforehand will provide better access to? In my experience, the only thing in that dungeon is more of the general thing you just grinded on to reach it.

Well, there's the incredibly irresistible loot that you've always wanted. The experience of exploring a dungeon, an unknown territory, could also be a form of reward, to which I know drives me to explore them.

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Originally posted by Kest On the other hand, I dislike linear and progressive role playing games for this reason. Players get blocked by powerful enemies, and have to beat up weaker enemies to become powerful enough to fight them. I prefer games where there's no such thing as being blocked. Fallout and Morrowind, for examples. Oblivion too, but it made extensive use of leveled enemies, which would solve the blocked problem for linear games, but which is also worse than being blocked, in my opinion. Leveled enemies is just a corny solution.

There's also the other way to look at it: if you show a player that he can't go in here right now until he gets stronger, that would only pique his interest in that dungeon and thus, make him more motivated to see what's in there. If you remove this and allow players able to roam anywhere anytime, then interest sort of dies out, because there isn't an enforced sense of difficulty or exoticism of reaching towards a goal. I guess it has to do with the reward system.

[Edited by - Tangireon on June 4, 2008 5:21:39 AM]

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Original post by AngleWyrm The Witcher used a system where XP for a given monster dropped as the player levelled up. This set an upper limit on the number of profitable kills of any given monster, putting an end to endless grinding. But then the only remaining way to get level-ups was from completing quests, moving forward to the end of the game. It was as if the video game was saying "ok that's enough--stop goofing around and get moving." Doing what, the laundry? Taking out the trash? The way I see it, there are times when Goofing Around is the motivation for playing a video game.

I agree. I personally don't think it's a good idea to permanently reduce the amount of experience that a given action or enemy grants the player. It's one thing to encourage varied exposure, but too much encouragement can be the same as forcing the player's decisions. If the player needs to grind in the game, this won't help anything. If anything, it would increase the number of enemies that need to be destroyed in order to gain power.

I haven't played the Witcher yet, but it sounds like we're referring to a linear game. Since players are essentially forced to face all of the challenges as the game moves on, and grinding (good or bad) is discouraged, most players will earn the same amount of experience as they progress. The leveling aspect of the game is no longer about earning experience most effectively. It's just about spending experience most effectively. Such as choosing between speed, strength, vitality, and defense for a warrior. If the game also increases stats automatically based on action (Oblivion), the leveling would become nearly inept. Barely noticable.

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Original post by Tangireon Wait a minute, if one were to make missions the primary form of obtaining experience, then wouldn't that just be another form of grinding; rather than the classical grinding of enemies, you would then just grind missions?

Are you referring to randomized missions and missions that can be repeated? Such as that in X-Com: UFO Defense? If so, then I agree. It's a great way to let players build up power while enjoying the primary gameplay. The more varied and interesting the missions, the more it will feel like playing a fun game instead of grinding.

Honestly, did anyone feel like they were grinding in X-Com? I engaged countless missions to get supplies from the downed UFOs and increase the experience of my troops, but it never felt like a tedious activity. Each mission was a suspenseful blast. The core gameplay of the game.

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Original post by Tangireon Quote: Originally posted by Kest What is in the dungeon that leveling up beforehand will provide better access to? In my experience, the only thing in that dungeon is more of the general thing you just grinded on to reach it. Well, there's the incredibly irresistible loot that you've always wanted. The experience of exploring a dungeon, an unknown territory, could also be a form of reward, to which I know drives me to explore them.

I'm just saying the fighting to obtain other desired elements will likely just bring you to more fighting. In other words, if you dislike the game now, you'll probably still dislike the game after you get into the dungeon. If it feels like a grind now, it will probably continue to do so. My point is that players who feel like they're grinding should just accept that the game is not very fun for them, and stop blaming the problem on an invisible force named grinding. The gameplay is what they actually dislike, not the grinding.

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Original post by Tangireon Quote: Originally posted by Kest On the other hand, I dislike linear and progressive role playing games for this reason. Players get blocked by powerful enemies, and have to beat up weaker enemies to become powerful enough to fight them. I prefer games where there's no such thing as being blocked. Fallout and Morrowind, for examples. Oblivion too, but it made extensive use of leveled enemies, which would solve the blocked problem for linear games, but which is also worse than being blocked, in my opinion. Leveled enemies is just a corny solution. There's also the other way to look at it: if you show a player that he can't go in here right now until he gets stronger, that would only pique his interest in that dungeon and thus, make him more motivated to see what's in there. If you remove this and allow players able to roam anywhere anytime, then interest sort of dies out, because there isn't an enforced sense of difficulty or exoticism of reaching towards a goal. I guess it has to do with the reward system.

You're right. But there's usually one huge difference. In a linear game, the player is usually extremely limited when choosing what to power up on. You can't travel somewhere to complete a fun stealth mission, or compete in the arena, or other open-ended concepts. You're usually forced to wander around the current area and beat up the local population.

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Original post by Kest Quote: Original post by Way Walker Quote: Original post by Kest Seriously, players who play games that focus on leveling characters are assumed to enjoy the gameplay that goes along with that territory. If they don't enjoy the gameplay that levels up the characters, the game, as a whole, fails. As the designer, there's nothing you can do to fix that. Your idea of fun just doesn't work for them. Didn't we have a discussion not too long ago where that's the point that I was arguing? [smile] Here, the designer would approve the gameplay as enjoyable. In that topic, we were supposed to be working under the assumption that the gameplay was tedious from the perspective of the designer.

Besides the fact that I would prefer to change "designer" to "player" in the above, I thought we were assuming grinding was nto enjoyable (it being described as boring and mindless). And, my answer is still that I disagree, because I still don't think the system mentioned changes anything from how the grind works in practice. I don't think that requiring players to do what they choose to do when not required will make it more enjoyable. Or, you could just say that I don't think this is "a different way to level up".

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Quote: I don't disagree that players enjoy grinding. In fact, I've said it before that, if a player's doing it, I assume that they are, in some sense, enjoying it. Insofar as the game's goal is to provide an enjoyable experience for that player, mission accomplished. This is something I've witnessed in friends of mine, and even myself. I think the term is getting confused here. What is a grind that isn't negative? Is it not just goal-oriented gameplay? Just about everyone enjoys that type of gameplay. It turns into something bad when the reward becomes the only motivation the player has to interact with the gameplay. I think we should assume that bad grinding is the only grinding relevant to the discussion.

I don't think defining grinding as "gameplay the player doesn't enjoy" is very useful (and I'm not sure what to make of only considering bad grinding under such a definition). I would never have called playing Half-life for the story (and seeing any gameplay as merely a nuisance) grinding. It's hardly rigorous, but I think of grinding as a repetitive action improving my character without progress toward a greater goal. I wouldn't include the combat faced while dungeon diving under such a definition since the character improvement is more of a side effect in that case (the combat being more of a barrier to progress than a means for improvement).

I also think this definition allows for good grinding. I don't think that grinding is always unenjoyable. I just thought that we were looking for alternatives to grinding.

EDIT: In particular, I was looking for ways to level up that didn't include incremental gains from repetition.

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Original post by AngleWyrm The Witcher used a system where XP for a given monster dropped as the player levelled up. This set an upper limit on the number of profitable kills of any given monster, putting an end to endless grinding. But then the only remaining way to get level-ups was from completing quests, moving forward to the end of the game. It was as if the video game was saying "ok that's enough--stop goofing around and get moving." Doing what, the laundry? Taking out the trash? The way I see it, there are times when Goofing Around is the motivation for playing a video game.

It seems to me that this doesn't prevent you from goofing around and just killing monsters. If anything, goofing around is all that's left (aside from the quests).