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Original post by Kest Games reward players who play more skillfully. That's been a fact since the very beginning.

True, but irrelevant.

A reward is not the same thing as the game being made less difficult. A reward is most often loot, prestige, etc - experience is a measure by which your effort is judged, not a reward in itself. Although it can sometimes be an indirect reward by virtue of the prestige of being high level, if you make experience easier to get, having high amounts of experience (higher levels) becomes less prestigious and is even less of a reward than it was previously.

I think this is one of those things that sounds good but turns into horrible game mechanics. I would go with what Iron Chef Carnage said: If you do it the simple way and just give more XP for more skillful methods of dispatching enemies, then good players (or lucky players, or players who have had a lot of experience with the genre before) will quickly reach high XP values and won't have much challenge any more, while bad players (or unlucky players, or players for whom this is their first RPG/<whatever-genre-this-is>) will very quickly be turned off from playing the game.

Having said that, giving XP is not the only way to reward players (in fact overall it's a very boring reward), and rewarding players who play with more skill is definitely worth it.

Possible rewards for the player having more skill:
Bragging rights: Valve style "Achievements"

Visual/effects reward: Awesome combo/special-move/whatever graphics and sound effects (yes, this is a reward - one that a lot of players love, too)

In-game props: After you've killed the minotaur with your incredible monkey-smash combo, villagers can refer to this feat later in the game (maybe even things like overhearing people talking about it as you walk past).

New opportunities: Villager comes up: "You killed the minotaur super-fast... maybe you're ready for <quest-X>", or "You killed the minotaur super-fast... I've been looking for someone to try out my new <experimental-weapon-Y>, but so far no one has had the skill to wield it correctly... maybe you're the one!".
Note that this last one is intended to be somewhat different to just getting a better weapon - the intention is that new weapon they receive really does take skill to wield correctly (maybe it has a long powerup time and should only be used in certain circumstances, or maybe it does hardly any damage unless you can pull off a combo move, or whatever). The idea being that the player must show evidence that they have the skill to use the weapon before it's given to them - a player who couldn't kill the minotaur quickly probably wouldn't be able to take advantage of the better weapon anyway. Having said that, I'm not at all sure that this could be implemented well.

There are probably other types of rewards that could be given too, but those are the ones that immediately spring to mind.

Edit:

Actually... I'm going to reverse my position on this, because I was ignoring a fundamental effect of increased XP, that as XP increases, you run into more and harder enemies too. Having said that, I wouldn't discount the other types of reward. Just seeing some numbers change doesn't feel like a big reward to me - it has to be accompanied with other things (different ways of playing, effects, etc).

John B

[Edited by - JohnBSmall on May 31, 2008 10:18:45 AM]

I question if leveling skillful players faster will reduce their challenge. I think it might actually add to replay value. How many games do you *not* play again simply because you hate to be low level all over again and have to grind to get to higher level content? What if the player who has played through a time or two can put that knowledge to good use and level faster by using the skill he has developed through the initial play though?

Also, I'm not sure how unskilled players would be turned off any more than normal RPG leveling which takes grinding, if you are unskilled you get base XP value, if you are skilled, you get extra, the novice will proceed as normal, but the skilled player will level faster.

[Edited by - JasRonq on May 31, 2008 11:32:19 AM]

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Original post by JasRonq I question if leveling skillfull player faster will reduce their challenge. I think It might actually add to replay value. How many games do you *not* play again simply because you hate to be low level all over again and have to grind to get to higher level content? What if the player who has played through a time or two can put that knowledge to good use and level faster by using the skill he has developed trough the initial play though?

Good point. I've changed my mind now anyway (someone changing their mind on the internet? something must be wrong...)

John B

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Original post by caffiene A reward is not the same thing as the game being made less difficult.

It is in the current discussion. I mean unless you want to employ leveled enemies and leveled items, which is just plain fruity.

There are some good ways to increase the difficulty of a game for players who smash the opposition, such as through plot events and enemy desperation counter measures. But the best way is to give control to the player. Allow them to choose their own level of challenge. There are plenty of ways to do this beyound selecting a difficulty setting in the options.

XP is a reward, maybe not as immediate as a big shiny dingus but it does bring new content in the form of access to new areas, new enemies you can fight, and new skills when you level up.

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Original post by BreathOfLife That HP ratio is tricky if you give the player the option of potions. The player might find himself burning potions to maximize xp gains to find they would have been handy for the boss that keeps killing him. That and if any is to have the ability to heal, they will generally gain much more xp. Dont get me wrong, i think its a great idea, but just seems like it narrows things down, which might end up a good thing.

Easy, don't base it off their HP, track the amount of damage they have taken from the target(s) (Out of view of the player), and use that as what you base your XP bonus gains from.


Each creature you kill should give a base level XP for a character's experience level (and maybe add a muffle effect someone else said, if you kill too many of them their value goes down. However it shouldn't rise too much if you go off to kill other things, or you'll end up with players just cycling through targets and you've only managed to change the nature of the grind).

So, each creature has a base XP gain at a given level, now add bonuses to it. Herd/pack creatures will be linked to all other members of their pack. If you manage to kill one without alerting any others you'll get a large XP bonus for it. If you kill one while only alerting a small part of the pack you'll get a less XP bonus. If you kill it quickly, you get a bonus, if you don't take any damage you get a bonus.

Other things to balance player types: If you can wade through the herd of man eating bovines to get to, and kill, their leader and most fierce fighter the Giant bull in the center, all without killing any of the lesser ones to gain a massive XP and Fame bonus.

Suggestion: Play Fable(http://www.lionhead.com/fabletlc/)! If you hit the monster your multiplicator is increased. If the monster hits you your multiplicator is decreased. In the game you can choose between skills for hitting and doging. But the game is balanced poorly.

The kill monster for x amout of xp system works really well, with an increase in level, when the xp is maxed out. Take WOW as an example.

And we all know this does lead to grinding on monsters, as the level increase is the desired reward for that action.

But, killing monsters should only be 1 way to gain xp. And in my experience, far to much emphasis is put on killing monsters as the main method to gain xp.

I would much prefer to see many different ways of gaining xp in a game.

Exploration being one example. Getting to that difficult ledge on a mountain top, might give high xp, visiting a little kown villiage ect. I was always disapointed and frustrated at the poor xp give in WOW for exploration. It was a real turn off for me.

I get just as much fun from exploration as i do from killing a difficult monster. XP given for mapping out an area ect could yield high xp.

Quests of course is another area where gaining xp is important. Chained quests are cool too, with later quests in the chain giving more xp than the earlier ones.

Crafting is another area where gaining xp is worthwhile.

How about xp gained for simply talking to npc's.

And in fact, you could extend this philosophy much further by saying, that everything you do in game, gives you xp to some degree. It's just the amount of xp that changes.

Just sitting in game, watching the sun rise could give a slow increase in xp for instance.

I wan't my player to gain xp when i'm in game. Whether i actively take part or not. This could be akin to age = xp.

I simply hate the idea of losing xp for not using skills or worse still, losing game time. If i've spent a long time working on upgrading certain skills, ie, put alot of work in for that skill, i don't want to have to be forced to keep using that skill in fear that i would otherwise lose it.

It may not be realistic, but then i'm talking about the FUN FACTOR in games, and not just a real life simulator.

Killing monsters, whether grinding or not should only be one way to gain xp. Player choice is whats needed, some players may want to grind, others not, but to put limits on what the player can do is bound to alienate alot of players.

KJM

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Original post by Talroth So, each creature has a base XP gain at a given level, now add bonuses to it. Herd/pack creatures will be linked to all other members of their pack. If you manage to kill one without alerting any others you'll get a large XP bonus for it. If you kill one while only alerting a small part of the pack you'll get a less XP bonus. If you kill it quickly, you get a bonus, if you don't take any damage you get a bonus.

Ah, a stealth modifier. That's a good one that I haven't thought of. For my game's environment, I would measure the player's ability to take hostile enemies out of the equation without alerting anyone else. So even if the player tricks one into leaving the area through dialog, it would be applied. As the mission goes on, the modifier keeps building up, making stealth more and more important. Might be enough to make hands sweat. It's too bad there's no easy way to apply this to the concept of not being seen at all (not taking any enemy out of the equation, because you're that good with stealth).