Well there are ways to stop or curb abuse of quick levelling. The way I've got it played out so far is that, you'll meet a type of enemy for the first time you'll get more experience points depending on how you kill them. But if you've encountered that enemy for the 30th time, then your experience points eventually flatline to a lower but uniform amount. Therefore, expertly killing a minotaur 70 times won't net you 100 XP a kill but 15 XP a kill.
Of course, specifics are still being worked out, lol.
A different way to level up.....
The way I see grinding & leveling is that these should be optional, not required, for you to play a game. In many RPGs, the bad guys are just there to provide you some challenge or obstacle in reaching to your next destination (which was given to you as a quest or part of the storyline). Sometimes you use them to practice your skills on them, sometimes you use them to get stronger to gain better access to a dungeon.
In MMORPGs, this should be the same. I see that there is a significant difference on how people view grinding & leveling while playing a single-player game than in a MMO game. In a single-player RPG the player sets his own pace, and there is no compelling need or pressure to get to some high level X by grinding the local fauna, because you are the only one in the world, and the story and world caters to you no matter what. Grinding & leveling becomes part of your ultimate goal in the game, not the sole purpose of it (while the sole purpose of playing the game becomes playing it for the story/situations/experience of being in the world). When you make it MMO'ed, I think that grinding and leveling becomes the sole focus of the game rather than something you'd do on the side, due to the added factor of competition amongst players, or for people to "fit in" or be "accepted" by being a certain level. Because no one wants to be a "newb", as generally established now, being low-level becomes a negative thing. As well as that, you don't have access to much of the game's luxurious services/gameplay elements/etc by being a low-leveler. While playing a single player game is about the playing experience, playing the MMO suddenly makes it more about getting to a higher level.
Killing enemies and leveling are important things in RPGs and MMORPGs, but if you make it the sole focus of the game, then the game can indeed become more like a labor/chore that you dread and less like a game. In the case of MMORPGs, sometimes this can't be helped, but if you can design it so that you would gain more experience points from doing quests than you would grinding enemies, this would help it a bit, both in the realm of mixing-it-up-a-bit as well as giving your enemy-killing acts a purpose, a more story-driven purpose.
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EDIT:
It should read Leveling from Grinding, meaning that Leveling with the ultimate goal of Grinding should be optional.
[Edited by - Tangireon on June 4, 2008 4:14:46 AM]
In MMORPGs, this should be the same. I see that there is a significant difference on how people view grinding & leveling while playing a single-player game than in a MMO game. In a single-player RPG the player sets his own pace, and there is no compelling need or pressure to get to some high level X by grinding the local fauna, because you are the only one in the world, and the story and world caters to you no matter what. Grinding & leveling becomes part of your ultimate goal in the game, not the sole purpose of it (while the sole purpose of playing the game becomes playing it for the story/situations/experience of being in the world). When you make it MMO'ed, I think that grinding and leveling becomes the sole focus of the game rather than something you'd do on the side, due to the added factor of competition amongst players, or for people to "fit in" or be "accepted" by being a certain level. Because no one wants to be a "newb", as generally established now, being low-level becomes a negative thing. As well as that, you don't have access to much of the game's luxurious services/gameplay elements/etc by being a low-leveler. While playing a single player game is about the playing experience, playing the MMO suddenly makes it more about getting to a higher level.
Killing enemies and leveling are important things in RPGs and MMORPGs, but if you make it the sole focus of the game, then the game can indeed become more like a labor/chore that you dread and less like a game. In the case of MMORPGs, sometimes this can't be helped, but if you can design it so that you would gain more experience points from doing quests than you would grinding enemies, this would help it a bit, both in the realm of mixing-it-up-a-bit as well as giving your enemy-killing acts a purpose, a more story-driven purpose.
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EDIT:
Quote:
Originally posted by Tangireon
The way I see grinding & leveling is that these should be optional, not required, for you to play a game.
It should read Leveling from Grinding, meaning that Leveling with the ultimate goal of Grinding should be optional.
[Edited by - Tangireon on June 4, 2008 4:14:46 AM]
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I suppose you could see it similarly to musical talent.
A talented musical person or 'a natural' may be able to understand and use different instruments easier than people who simply "want to play an instrument". Some people can try more challening things sooner because they may have a musical mind (this would be someone with good reflexes and quick combat learning) whereas non-musically mind musicians may have to practise and practise (poor players that may have to revert to 'grinding') to get to the same potential.
I suppose its rewarding naturally good players. You could even have the difficulty increase slightly faster with good players so as to balance out the equation a little. The better and smarter they fight, the harder it gets.
A talented musical person or 'a natural' may be able to understand and use different instruments easier than people who simply "want to play an instrument". Some people can try more challening things sooner because they may have a musical mind (this would be someone with good reflexes and quick combat learning) whereas non-musically mind musicians may have to practise and practise (poor players that may have to revert to 'grinding') to get to the same potential.
I suppose its rewarding naturally good players. You could even have the difficulty increase slightly faster with good players so as to balance out the equation a little. The better and smarter they fight, the harder it gets.
I'm a big fan of the 'achievements' system as a way of encouraging replay and offering the player some interesting (but optional) challenges to test his skill.
Applying the model to a RPG skill system is an interesting idea, and I quite like it. You could do away with XP altogether.
Break Achievements up into difficulty levels and different categories. To reach level 2 fighter, maybe I have to attain one Easy Combat Achievement. To reach level 3 mage, I have to attain one Moderate Spellcasting achievement, or three Easy Spellcasting Achievements etc.
Or perhaps it could be tied to particular skills. Maybe each easy, moderate and hard achievement tied to a particular skill nets me 1, 3 or 9 skill rank increases accordingly.
There is still the problem of good players reaching level 8478 in seconds and breezing through the game, while bad players get frustrated and give up. One solution is to make it possible to reach any level with only easy achievements, but attach some kind of prestige reward for the higher level ones. Coming up with enough different achievements at each level to do this might be difficult though.
Applying the model to a RPG skill system is an interesting idea, and I quite like it. You could do away with XP altogether.
Break Achievements up into difficulty levels and different categories. To reach level 2 fighter, maybe I have to attain one Easy Combat Achievement. To reach level 3 mage, I have to attain one Moderate Spellcasting achievement, or three Easy Spellcasting Achievements etc.
Or perhaps it could be tied to particular skills. Maybe each easy, moderate and hard achievement tied to a particular skill nets me 1, 3 or 9 skill rank increases accordingly.
There is still the problem of good players reaching level 8478 in seconds and breezing through the game, while bad players get frustrated and give up. One solution is to make it possible to reach any level with only easy achievements, but attach some kind of prestige reward for the higher level ones. Coming up with enough different achievements at each level to do this might be difficult though.
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Original post by Tangireon
The way I see grinding & leveling is that these should be optional, not required, for you to play a game.
The way I see it, leveling should happen as you play the game. Not as a side attraction that you have to diverge your attention for. What ever the center attraction of the game is should provide the most leveling. If players grind in such a game, then they simply don't like the game. Nothing to be done. We definitely can't make all gameplay optional for players who just want to watch the story unfold. The story is there to motivate the gameplay, not to destroy it.
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In many RPGs, the bad guys are just there to provide you some challenge or obstacle in reaching to your next destination (which was given to you as a quest or part of the storyline). Sometimes you use them to practice your skills on them, sometimes you use them to get stronger to gain better access to a dungeon.
What is in the dungeon that leveling up beforehand will provide better access to? In my experience, the only thing in that dungeon is more of the general thing you just grinded on to reach it.
On the other hand, I dislike linear and progressive role playing games for this reason. Players get blocked by powerful enemies, and have to beat up weaker enemies to become powerful enough to fight them. I prefer games where there's no such thing as being blocked. Fallout and Morrowind, for examples. Oblivion too, but it made extensive use of leveled enemies, which would solve the blocked problem for linear games, but which is also worse than being blocked, in my opinion. Leveled enemies is just a corny solution.
Experience points are an abstract concept that are supposed to represent your character's ability to learn.
Levels are another abstract concept for comparing the relative powers of characters within a game, although skill based systems will muddy the waters here.
If a character slays an enemy with ease, he will not learn very much from the experience at all. This is normally built into an RPG system implicitly by having higher levels harder to attain (i.e. 15 experience point reward means more when you need 2000 to reach level 3 than when you need 50000 to reach level 10) and so does not require a specific game mechanic. If you always need the same experience target between levels to level up, then you will need an additional game mechanic for this.
Here's an alternative suggestion; why not have the character only ever gain experience from fighting creatures as powerful, or more powerful, than himself? That would make high level characters rarer (good for game balance) and they would have to seek out powerful opponents and not kill a hundred minotaurs.
Levels are another abstract concept for comparing the relative powers of characters within a game, although skill based systems will muddy the waters here.
If a character slays an enemy with ease, he will not learn very much from the experience at all. This is normally built into an RPG system implicitly by having higher levels harder to attain (i.e. 15 experience point reward means more when you need 2000 to reach level 3 than when you need 50000 to reach level 10) and so does not require a specific game mechanic. If you always need the same experience target between levels to level up, then you will need an additional game mechanic for this.
Here's an alternative suggestion; why not have the character only ever gain experience from fighting creatures as powerful, or more powerful, than himself? That would make high level characters rarer (good for game balance) and they would have to seek out powerful opponents and not kill a hundred minotaurs.
“If you try and please everyone, you won’t please anyone.”
I'm a huge fan of actually having to train your character to build up his potential, and then realize it through practical experience. Kengo II on the PS2 was a shining example of this. You set up your attribute balance by performing training minigames, and then in actual combat your abilities will improve based on how you fight. Run around a lot, your agility gets buffed, but if you haven't been doing the speed training exercises in your down-time, you can't get it beyond a certain point.
So you've got to plan your workout regimen and grind those minigames to get your conditioning up to snuff, but you won't be a better fighter just from pumping iron and doing kata, you've got to step into the ring and get the hands-on experience.
Good system, I thought.
So you've got to plan your workout regimen and grind those minigames to get your conditioning up to snuff, but you won't be a better fighter just from pumping iron and doing kata, you've got to step into the ring and get the hands-on experience.
Good system, I thought.
Quote:
Originally posted by Tangireon
...if you can design it so that you would gain more experience points from doing quests than you would grinding enemies, this would help it a bit, both in the realm of mixing-it-up-a-bit as well as giving your enemy-killing acts a purpose, a more story-driven purpose.
I had a few ideas for this that I didn't get to post in that last post, its sort of like treating quests as missions that become made available to you multiple times and are dynamic as well (change according to the conditions of the game world that is then ultimately caused by the actions of the MMO players), and while having your Level be more based upon a "Resume" to which is sort of like the achievements system except with Completed or Failed Missions:
1. Quests, or more accurately called Missions in the context of this idea, will become the primary method of attaining experience points, while grinding monsters could still be done if you desire (such as for quick practice), but will yield you significantly less experience or loot (except for rare-spawn boss monsters) than the Missions will.
2. These Missions can be made available to you multiple times (with availability rate depending on supply and demand), not only as a one-time deal like the traditional Quest; in addition to this, the Mission objectives themselves will change dynamically according to the conditions of the world, such as its resource count, enemy bounty, difficultly, etc, to which follows the principles of supply and demand. The more Missions you do, the better reputation you earn with those who offered you that mission (which might allow you better access to their services, etc), and the more experience you get in performing that type of activity (such as Bounty-Hunting, Loot-Running, Burglary, Defense, etc).
3. Some of these Missions may have an expiration/deadline date or contain a reward waning rate, so then to make the player consider their skills vs the amount of missions to accept at once in one sitting in a city.
4. Like the monsters of the land, some Missions will be too difficult for you to do. Rather than make them unavailable to low-levelers, allow punishments to occur if you failed to succeed at a mission, so to allow that small chance of success to exist (to which is always fun, the challenge of doing something everyone thought was impossible for you). Reputation might dwindle between you and the mission-giver if you failed. In some cases you may have to pay them repercussion money because you failed. Some missions might force you to hold onto something of yours until you finish the mission, and if you lose, you lose that possession. You can see the difficultly of the mission by seeing how large its reward is.
5. When you sign up for a mission, your "Resume" will be looked at to which lists all of the missions that you have successfully completed and those that you didn't (sort of like the achievements system) and your reward might change according to that. Human players may use this system to manage their own mission-offerings, especially in something like paying others for doing a certain labor. You could even set up contracts and even organizations/companies to which manages multiple players' contracts to really rake in the profit.
Think of this idea as like the system implemented in a spaceship-shooter game, where rather than grinding monsters as the primary method of leveling up, you take missions so that then your enemy-killing activities (as well as other nonlethal activities) take on a more situational/story-driven varied context. These missions may all weave together to give you peeks at the ultimate back story of the game, or if inapplicable, the political condition of the gameworld/universe.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sandman
I'm a big fan of the 'achievements' system as a way of encouraging replay and offering the player some interesting (but optional) challenges to test his skill.
Applying the model to a RPG skill system is an interesting idea, and I quite like it. You could do away with XP altogether.
Break Achievements up into difficulty levels and different categories. To reach level 2 fighter, maybe I have to attain one Easy Combat Achievement. To reach level 3 mage, I have to attain one Moderate Spellcasting achievement, or three Easy Spellcasting Achievements etc.
I very much like this idea. It sounds rewarding, could be designed to encourage varying methods and tricks (which could help to vary gameplay), includes potential bragging rights, and, if combined with doing away with XP, could reduce the attraction of grinding significantly, I suspect.
The problem of preventing players from levelling up too quickly could surely be dealt with by simply not tying achievements to level (and perhaps removing classical level entirely, perhaps including it only as a count of achievements), and not putting in place the conditions required for higher-level achievements early in the game, but rather spreading out their first occurrences.
For example, gaining control of high-level fire magic might involve the achievement of killing a fire elemental with magic, but without the use of ice magic. If such magic is deemed to be roughly mid-level, then fire elementals may only start appearing towards the middle of the game. Similarly, one could approach the problem from the other side; lay out the progression (or potential progressions) of the game, and look for opportunities for achievements.
Similarly, achievements, and thus the abilities that they unlock, could perhaps be made more rare by reducing the number of opportunities for their completion - a very rare achievement might, for example, involve the killing of a specific, unique creature with a specific, unique weapon, and acquiring the weapon before meeting the monster might involve following a specific path through the game.
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Original post by Kest Quote:
Original post by Way Walker
This doesn't really eliminate grinding, does it? Now it's just a requirement to grind with style to get the most benefit from your grinding.
Grinding with style = fun gaming.
Seriously, players who play games that focus on leveling characters are assumed to enjoy the gameplay that goes along with that territory. If they don't enjoy the gameplay that levels up the characters, the game, as a whole, fails. As the designer, there's nothing you can do to fix that. Your idea of fun just doesn't work for them.
Didn't we have a discussion not too long ago where that's the point that I was arguing? [smile]
I don't disagree that players enjoy grinding. In fact, I've said it before that, if a player's doing it, I assume that they are, in some sense, enjoying it. Insofar as the game's goal is to provide an enjoyable experience for that player, mission accomplished. This is something I've witnessed in friends of mine, and even myself.
The original post started with "As opposed to grinding...". I don't see grinding with style as something other than grinding. It may prolong the period over which grinding is enjoyable, but it's still grinding. Maybe I should've read the first line as "As opposed to grinding without style..."? But I think that many players (at least all the players I've known personally) already grind with style to make grinding more fun. When I've done it or watched my friends do it, they tend to mix it up, trying different things, and doing things just for fun. In most Final Fantasy games, status effect spells aren't so useful, but they can be fun when just running around levelling up. In that way, I don't see Alpha_ProgDes' idea as being different from grinding in practice.
Sandman's way of eliminatining XP is similar to what I was trying to get across. What I'm a little uncertain of there is how best to make the 3 easy achievements to reach level 3 non-trivial after having already required the player to make 1 easy achievement to reach level 2. It's probably mostly a matter of defining what an achievement is.
On the other hand, I don't think there's much of a problem with the idea that a skilled player would have an easier time with the game. So long as players aren't expected to be in direct competition with much better players I'm not sure why it would be particularly frustrating for "bad" players. I imagine it being more of a problem for the skilled player who can rush through all the content.
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Negative grinding is created by players. Specifically, by players who want something from the game other than what it was intended for. In short, if you're in it for something other than the gameplay that provides leveling, playing a different genre might be more profitable.
I'm not sure that I see why leveling implies grinding. Even more, I disagree that negative grinding is created by players. I don't think I've seen anyone complain that the gameplay of Final Fantasy I wasn't designed to make solo theif games fun. In fact, the fun of that is trying to do something the gameplay wasn't designed for.
Also, I agree with AngleWyrm that the game play isn't always as the game designers intended. The most glaring examples result in unbalanced gameplay. Another example comes from the last MMORPG I played: Asheron's Call (the first one). When I stopped playing (due to money and time constraints) choosing which skills to specialize in came down to having creature, item, and health magic, plus an attack skill (offensive magic, archery, or some hand-to-hand weapon). There were even recommendations that characters start with minimal stamina and health even if they weren't a mage because you could increase those either directly or through endurance making them a cheap increase. It even turned out that specializing in healing magic made for a pretty powerful offensive character due to the drain health spell. As far as I can tell, none of this was the intended gameplay.
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Original post by Way Walker Quote:
Original post by Kest
Games reward players who play more skillfully. That's been a fact since the very beginning.
True, but games have also tended to provide a more difficult challenge as the player gets better.
That's sort of beyound the point, isn't it? Players who don't play skillfully can still reach those levels of increased difficulty, but they won't have the same bonus that the other player obtained by playing better.
Maybe I'm not sure what the point is. Could you clarify that for me? The only problem I can see is if players of widely different skill levels are in essentially constant, direct competition. In a single player RPG, it doesn't matter much if my friend earned the PUSD but I couldn't quite manage it. It doesn't even matter in most MMORPG's so far as I can tell.
If I worked hard and finally overcame the last obstacle and am now faced with one I cannot overcome, what's to keep me from practicing (increasing player skills), grinding (increasing character skills), or both until I can overcome it?
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