quote:

---

Original post by The Kid

I will participate in your survey. I am an avid christian. I also love writing code. Does being Christian or not make me a better coder ? What the FOG do you know/care ? They aren''t related, so there is no way of figuring out, and nothing that ties the two together but chance.

Q : How many athiests does it take to screw in a light bulb ?
A : 0, they let it evolve on its own.

---

Well, really, you can''t sit in front of your screen and wait for someone (or he, or her - not going into that...) to do it for you.

Aethiesm: (really a word?) is getting of your ass and not believing someone else should do it... (code, create a big rock, bring on multinational killing diseases...


C''mon, who gives a rats ass....

("I am my own saviour, and damnation")

Well, where to start...
I suppose I could begin by saying that despite me being a Christian I am not afraid to discover the truth - in fact I pursue it more wholeheartedly than most I know. However, in my pursuit for truth (scientific and spiritual) I have discovered a great deal of evidence to substantiate the claims in the Bible. Yes, I agree that it is unconvinving to say "God must exist because He parted the sea for Moses" since it is very hard to find any evidence for it (though I seem to recall some). However, there is some you can substantiate from the Bible.
The most easily tested is the prophecies of future events regarding the birth, life and death of Jesus the Christ. It is unreasonable to say that these prophecies were writting after the event for the reason that the Septaugant (Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures) existed before His birth. This guaruntees that the entire Old Testament was written before Jesus. For those who care, and wish to actually discover the truth for themselves (atheists aren''t afraid of the truth are they?) will at least consider this and investigate the prophecies for truth, and compare them to historical facts.
There is a great deal of other evidence that I have come across, it is just not widely spread for obvious reasons. Again, if you look, you will find. I can point some people to what this is if they want and it is not some airy-fairy evidence. It is real life modern day experiences that can be verified through countless witnesses and well documented evidence.

As for heaven and hell. Yes unbelievers go to hell. I believe that God chooses who will be saved, and that each person has no choice in this matter. It is simple...every person alive is evil and wicked, no exceptions. We all have dark secrets, evil desires, selfish motives. When we compare ourselves to each other, we seem to be good. Yet when we compare ourselves to God as described in the Bible (whether real or imaginary) we discover we fall miles short of the standard for what a good person is. Everyone deserves then the punishment of hell. However, God has chosen a few to be saved, not because of anything they have done, but just because that is the way He is...call it favoratism or whatever. He chose the Jewish people, and now He calls people from every nation, tribe and tongue. In fact the Bible says He chooses the foolish to make fools of the wise. There is nothing you can do to get your way into heaven. You can recognise one who has been chosen by their faith. If they believe then they are chosen. Not many Christians believe this viewpoint, but to them I would encourage them to read their Bibles and research the doctrine of election.

It is unfair also to say that Christians believe because they need something, or that religion is a device by the government in the past or present to control the masses. My faith is not a blind faith. I have a certain amount of knowledge and the rest is based on faith. In fact, I pose this question for those who believe there is no God/gods, and that the world was created in the method described by the theory of evolution...
For what reason do you follow the law, respect people and live according to social standards? If you can kill someone, trample over them, manipulate or control them and gain from it yourself then why don''t you? It is natural selection and you are doing the world a favor by passing on your superior genes. Or do you believe that you are inferior so you are leaving the work to someone more suited to pass on their genes? You are working against evolution. Give in to all those desires that you have and stop working against the forces of nature...

Oh, and David20321, there is ways to prove that there is/was a "God", "Jehovah", "Allah", "Zeus", etc. You just don''t look into it and then say that there is no way, thinking that most others have researched as much as you have.
Arguments from Christians against evolution is just one of many evidences we have. The truth is, no amount of evidence will convince anyone unless they are willing to consider the truth of a matter for what it is (unbiased) and research it. Most people don''t. I''d like to think that I do.

Tyreth

Well, to all the non-christians out there. . .
If you have read the bible, and even if you haven''t . . . Why did God create the evil fruit in the Garden Of Eden? Because he wanted us to have a free will. (I know I''m going to screw something up when I''m trying to be serious) Someone said "If god has the power to do anything, then why doesn''t he convert all non-christians into christians?" Well, the answer is because he wanted everyone to have their own free will. Now don''t say that he didn''t tell you it was wrong.Thats what the bible is for, thats what Jesus was for. How do you explain Jesus if you are Athiest, or any other religion for that matter? Even if you aren''t punished during your life here on earth you will be punsihed in Hell. I don''t agree with the death sentence because they will suffer for an eternity anyway. I can''t think of anything else to write, but I hope this message gets to some of you people other there. Sorry I know this is a OpenGL forum but if you didn''t want to read these opinions you didn''t have to click on it. and to keep the Mods from closing this topic. . . anyone know of a good OpenGL tutorial on the net?

_BUSTER_

<><



www.crosswinds.net/~dotspot
______________________________
Check out my for sale domain name!

http://www.theatermonkey.com

#define Jesus_and_all_your_other_gods 0

Now how does this make you feel?

OPENGL ROCKS!!!! but not as much as Direct X LOL (not meant to be quoted or flamed, just trying to get some OGL stuff in here)

-----------------------------------------------------------
"People who usualy use the word pedantic usualy are pedantic!"-me

Oh poor simple children all u atheists and all u christians and all u other religious finatics no matter what your faith. Let me let you in on a little secret. The human race as a hole is far to stupid and immature to make any presumptions on who or what the creator of the universe truly is and any1 who decides that they're belief is right and every1 elses is wrong is obviously a fool.

Edited by - Whisper_Of_Creation on May 14, 2001 11:37:12 PM

Whisper_of_Creation: Your opinion is wrong!

someone on the board said that it was exteremly highly unprobable that things are the way they are by chance.

Well how many galaxies are in the universe ? How many stars do each one of those galaxies hold ? How many of those stars have planets orbiting them ? Take that number and multiply it by the probability that life came to be/world as we know it lets say it is 1/10000000000000000000000000000000000000
how much ever that is.
You are still gonna come up with a number that is greater then 1. A number that is far greater then 1 actually. So why couldnt that happen here, on Earth ? Why cant this planet be one of those ? You say because the chance is so highly unlikely. Well it did happen, or we wouldnt be here to talk about it. So the chances of it happening here on Earth are actually 1, since it did happen.

BTW: I am agnostic. I neither believe nor disbelieve in God. I lean more to the atheist side however. I just find it extremely hard to believe in God. But I do beleive that if I live a good life, and I do, that if there is a God, I have nothing to worry about.
Think about this. Alot of people use examples from the bible to prove the existance of God. For one example, and there are many, many native american groups believe in various ways that the world was created. What makes them wrong and you all right. Because it was wrote in the bible ? Because that is what the majority think. That is why you are "right" and they are "wrong". And personally, the whole story with the creation of the world and the whole Adam and Eve story sounds more of like a fairy tale to me, along with alot of the bible.

Hmm...I haven't posted on the gdnet message boards in a while, but when I read this relatively non-heated conversation on religion, I knew that I had to put in a few words before it is eventually closed.

As for my "status," I consider myself agnostic. I don't believe in categorizing, but I would label myself this way after being subjected to all types of religions. After listening to very different ideas, I have come to the conclusion (for myself, personally) that there is currently no way to realize if there is truly a supreme being that will (supposedly) decide my ultimate fate. I know that most Christians/Muslims/whatever will declare that a god has given everyone the inherent faith to believe, but truly, I just can't get myself to take it all very seriously. Once again though, there is no proof against a supreme being, so I have to be open-minded.

Furthermore, because I am agnostic it does not mean that I am "depressed" (eriol). Actually, my questioning has invigorated me into wanting to understand others' beliefs and finding the ultimate truth. Because I state that I don't know does not mean that I don't care. I think this is the best way of life for me, because instead of being content with a god/no god and being provincial-minded, my life has much more meaning. And, eriol, simply because I don't know there is a God does not mean my life has no meaning. So, please, spare me your pity.

Eriol, I disagree with you on a couple points. First, I can't see how you can state that being agnostic is any more impractical than practicing christianity or following those ufo-based religous for that matter. Actually, if you really look at the meaning of "impractical," agnosticism is as practical, if not more, than believing in something you can't directly experience/see/feel. By the way, saying that someone's views are impractical *is* being negatively judgemental.

Also, I don't know how you can state that agnostic views that, as you put it, lead to many questions, put an end to thought. More questions = more thought, and vice versa. I agree that there are many questions, questions that we cannot answer at this present time, or ever. Whether you're agnostic or not, questions bombard us in our daily lives. How do you know you're here? How do you know that there is no parallel dimension in which your counterpart is typing the same exact message on the same exact computer? How do you know that 2 + 2 = 4? How do you know that you're not just somebody's imagination? Yes, all very surreal questions, but don't you tell me that they're impractical or unreasonable because these questions can be followed by the ultimate question of "Is there a God?"

One last thing before I go. Heaven, Hell, Hades, afterlife, and God supposedly sending unbelievers to rot in hell for all eternity. This is one of the things that turned me off from organized religion. I can't live with knowing that ultimately some being will decide my fate by sending me to heaven for being a believer, while my friend who led as good and altruistic a life as I is sent to hell. I just can't cope with the idea. Why can't we just try to lead lives in which you don't scorn people, don't hate people, and be an all around nice person. I know this is hard, very hard, but this is the reason for living, in my opinion: leading a good life. I also believe this is that "little something" we search for in our lives that you describe. Why must we all was our lives in following beliefs that advocate an afterlife that may or may not exist anyway?

Wait, I have to add something else. If I were the ultimate God and I had the choice of creating my world with all my little subjects that worship me, why the hell would I give my subjects "free will." I'd play GOD and be ULTIMATE. I'd make every person believe in me. That is what I would do if I were a god; why would our supposed "creator" be any different? Why would he choose to give up followers? If I go back to the Bible now, I remember the story of Noah and the ark. Wasn't the giant flood sent down to wash the earth of the non-believing dreg of humanity? Isn't this the same god that gave men "free will." I might be misunderstanding here, so if anyone can explain, please do, but it seems to me that this part of religion is very self-contradictory.

Damn, one last thing. Pik's response to someone's opinion: "Your opinion is wrong!" This is what bothers me about religion. Why in the world is *everybody else* wrong? Everybody is so close-minded and stubborn, and just because somebody brings up opposing viewpoints, he has to be met with this statement? Give me a break. All organized religions are filled with people like this. Ok, I'm out now.

Tell me if my thoughts were completely vacant...I'm very tired so some things might not have come out right.

Bye!



Edited by - lpsoftware on May 14, 2001 12:48:36 AM

Edited by - lpsoftware on May 14, 2001 12:58:36 AM

Hello fellow gamedev members,

Although I have not spoken frequently, or even recently on this board, I believe I have some things worth saying:

First off; I''m not the best coder (I might even be what''s known as a ''newbie'') but thats not the issue, my message is, contrary to the site''s name, not about game development.

Many topics have been thrown around in this discussion; some may be right, some wrong, others pointless. I haven''t spent the time to read each and every one, but those I have read seem to miss the point.

Now, I know that this board ''isn''t the place for religous discussion'' or whatever, but the fact that it has been brought up makes it a worthy topic (does it not?). So, I feel that, although I speak only for myself, I have the liberty to voice my ''opinion'' regarding this subject.

For some reason the ''Christian''s'' on this board feel it''s their ''duty'' or something to ''spread the news'', and they are right; if they are following what they believe then for many it is good and right to do as they have done. However they seem to have forgotten their first purpose as believers which is this: To love your neighbor. Now, not to put a bushel over your flame, but our purpose should not be to initate an argument with those of differing opinions than us. This is not only useless, but also counterproductive: We are blemishing the image we are to project to others of what, and who, He (our savior) was, is, and wants us to be.

I believe our purpose should not be to somehow think we can ''pursuade'' others to Christ by our ''superior knoweldge'' or the like, on the contrary! We are to (to the best of our ability) ''live peaceably with everyone'', this doesn''t mean to ''pick fights'' thinking we can beat up, or get beat up for our beliefs! Our lives are to be shining examples of God to those around us. Please don''t fracture others'' view of Him we represent by causing anger and discord with those who are our ''friends'' and neighbors... Instead, reach out to those around you: your friends! If you believe what you say you believe, then it must start at home, and work it''s way from the inside, out.

(disclamer) I do not believe to know all, or even more than anyone else in this area, however I do have certain views that I believe are right. I will do my best to follow what I know to be good and benefitial to my God, others, and myself. My hope is that you would please do this also.

Sincerly,
-Michael G.

(ps. (braces for impact) - I''m gonna get killed for this message!)
Oh yeah, by the way; incase you couldn''t tell, I am also a Christain, and live to the best of my abilities, for Him: Let the Christianity bashing insue if that is what you so desire.

If anyone wishes to seriously contact me, you can reach me by e-mail: thr33d@yahoo.com
I don''t wish to receive hate mail, but if you feel the need to do so, then do, but please first think; thank you.

Thr33d is cool and his argument makes sense, if you believe in Christianity, practice it and be good to everyone (I hope I understood you correctly). But since I''m not Christian I don''t have to do that, so I''ll answer what some ppl asked or respond to other people''s statements.

>>"Oh, and David20321, there is ways to prove that there is/was a >>"God", "Jehovah", "Allah", "Zeus", etc"

If there are ways to prove all of them, how can any be right? Why don''t you show me+the rest of these forums one? If I see a real proof of any of them, then it would be true.

>>"How do you explain Jesus if you are Athiest, or any other
>>religion for that matter? "

Jesus was some (kind of crazy) guy who thought he was the son of God and was killed for it because the Romans didn''t like it. (or something like that). And all other religions are just people who don''t know much about the world explaining it through supernatural beings (e.g. witches, demons, devils, evil spirits, gods, angels, etc.)

>>""As for heaven and hell. Yes unbelievers go to hell. I believe
>>that God chooses who will be saved, and that each person has no
>>choice in this matter.""

Great so in your religion random people are "chosen" to go to hell by the all-loving God. That sounds great. What happened to all your arguments of ''free will''? LOL If God created everyone however he wanted, why did he create people who became "unbelievers"? If you believe in fate and prophecies, there is no free will, they are mutually exclusive. What about the prophecy that the world would end in 2000? Check your watch or your calender, oops! Wrong again!

>>"It is unreasonable to say that these prophecies were writting
>>after the event for the reason that the Septaugant (Greek
>>translation of the Hebrew scriptures) existed before His birth.
>>This guaruntees that the entire Old Testament was written before
>>Jesus."

If all these prophecies about Jesus dying blah-blah are all true and were written before his birth, he obviously just read them and followed the example of the fictional character. A lot like the character in the movie "Nurse Betty". This is another example of trying to use the bible to justify Christianity, it doesn''t work, sorry. It''s like saying "Star Wars is real! Look at the movie! If Tie Fighters don''t exist, what are those things flying around shooting lasers!"

>>"For what reason do you follow the law, respect people and live
>>according to social standards? If you can kill someone, trample
>>over them, manipulate or control them and gain from it yourself
>>then why don''t you? It is natural selection and you are doing
>>the world a favor by passing on your superior genes. Or do you
>>believe that you are inferior so you are leaving the work to
>>someone more suited to pass on their genes? You are working
>>against evolution. Give in to all those desires that you have
>>and stop working against the forces of nature..."

I don''t know what kind of people you''ve been hanging out with who kill and trample people, but in case you haven''t noticed yet, atheists and agnostics are not monstrous criminals with no decency and kindness, we just don''t do it because some super-being told us to, we aren''t forced to like Christians, we do it because we are nice people. Also if everybody in the world killed each other, you would get anarchy which would degenerate into mass destruction and low life spans, thus going against evolution. If we kill someone, we will be killed, or should be(I am pro death-penalty), thus insuring that killers dont contribute to the gene pool because they are not contributing members of society, they detract from it.

>>"Where is the scientific evidence for God not existing?"
LOL read the rest of this thread.

>>"There''s something we''re all restless for. We''re not sure what
>>it is, but the more we seem to satisfy ourselves with the things
>>around us, the more dissatisfied we become. We soon come to
>>realize that nothing in this life will please us long. There
>>must be something to fill that want ... that yearning for "we
>>don''t know what". It''s not money, it''s not fame, it''s not sex,
>>it''s not drugs, it''s not power ... for many people have these
>>things, and more ... and if you ask them if they are happy ...
>>if they are satisfied ... they will most likely tell you "no".

Hey speak for yourself, I''m perfectly happy with who I am, but if you NEED a god ruling you to feel "whole", that''s fine with me.

>>"Personally ... I can''t see what anyone would want to be
>>athiest. It must be so depressing, when you stop to think about
>>it. Surely life must have some meaning? What makes you think
>>that man is so special that he knows everything, and what he
>>can''t see in front of him, nor understand at first, must be
>>automatically considered false and foolish? If people are
>>willing to believe in aliens, why is believing in a spiritual
>>deific entity so unthought of?"

Who says we know everything and believe in aliens? If God did exist the meaning of life is to, hmm, suck up to him so you can get into heaven?

>>"But again ... you are free to think as you wish. I''m only
>>trying to give you reasons to take religion seriously. It claims
>>certain things are true. You cannot just ignore them, because
>>they challenge you and your way of life. You must at least
>>resolve within yourselves the fact that the claims are true or
>>false. Perhaps you are satisfied with your answers as you have
>>given them. But I think that if you would actually sit back and
>>think - forget Christianity for a second - you''d see that they
>>fall quite short. You would realize that there is something more
>>to the universe than we can ever explain. Something more to it
>>than pure science."

I''ve already considered your reasons, and decided whether they are true or false. They are all false. Happy? There is more to the universe than we can explain right now, but that''s just because we haven''t done enough research yet, there will always be more to find out and eventually we WILL probably find what caused the Big Bang etc. Science is, by definition, the gathering of knowledge to explain phenomena, and you are saying will we never be able to explain some things? And anything we can''t explain is caused by God? Give me a break. That is like offering the joke about the kleenex being popped up as serious proof that God exists, lol. Maybe I''m the only one, but I think you(eriol) are being very arrogant. As you would say, "Not to offend you or anything, but your religion sucks and is totally wrong, but you are free to believe anything you want, but if you sit back and look at it for a while, you will see how wrong you are." LOL