-It defies the established speed of light, if the universe was created 10,000 years ago, how can we see things that are much farther than 10,000 lightyears?
>Can''t really comment on this, haven''t studied the physics of >space. I have heard however that there are other theories to >describe the travel of light that allows the travel of light >from the furthest system to earth in just 15 years or something. > I will probably read up on this one day.
Well, that does sound interesting. Where did you read this?
Is it on the internet?
-Nobody has ever seen God DO anything.
How do *they* know it was God? Most of the time
nobody else was able to witness it for some reason.
The common excuse is that the spirits only come to
those who believe in them.
"One who talks to God is religious, Someone whom God talks
to is insane." -Someone else in this thread said that.
It''s a good point.
-To believe Christian bible I would have to believe the Virgo galactic superclustor is roughly the size of a baseball field.
(This is an exxagerated comment dirived from the
light-speed argument.)
Why? Because we can see it, therefore if the universe
it 10000 years old, it must be small enough to fit into
a ball of 10000 lightyears radius. Yes, "baseball field" is
an exageration, but 1/100th of our galaxy alone wouldn''t
be visible according to the Christian bible because the rest
of the galaxies light wouldn''t have reached us yet.
That cuts us off from the Megallenic cloud galaxies,
the local group, and then the Virgo Supercluster, followed
by some nebhoring galaxy clusters.
--------------
Ok, so you paid some attention to our arguments, let''s hear
your supporting evidence for God. If you don''t want to use
the newsgroup, we can email. Jdc2002@teleport.com.
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religion in the forums?!?!
May 16, 2001 04:41 AM
quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
The most accepted theory today says that the speed of light limit was not a reality at the time for big bang. You will not find it in older (more than 10 years?) books but I guess the NASA site should have something about it.
That shouldn''t matter; All we can see of the big bang
is the cosmic background radiation. Everything else is
post-big-bang era, when the limitation DOES exist.
Also, to imply the bigbang had anything to do with it
also goes against creation
OH! Did I forget to mention the Cosmic background Radiation?
Oh well, I will save that for another time. I am getting
tired for now, and Netscape is memory leaking horribly.
I had a great response to tyreth, which I lost to a lockup
caused by NS overloading all 128megs ram and 100megs swap.
By the time I got back, Tyreth nullified my argument.
Well, some of it. That jerk
850
May 16, 2001 05:56 AM
tyreth: how long do you usually wait for tea? damn thats a long time to wait..
May 16, 2001 06:13 AM
well, religion or not.... this is an OpenGL forum!!
Nehe - you should stop this thread.... there are othe places for these things....
Nehe - you should stop this thread.... there are othe places for these things....
134
May 16, 2001 06:16 AM
Ok, here are a few things for you to think about:
Where in the bible does it say that the world was created in 6 days? Why, it looks like it does in Genesis ("On the second day, blah blah blah"). Now go and have a look at the original Hebrew translation, and if you were a Hebrew speaker, you might realise that the word which was translated as "day" actually has 1+ meaning:
1) Day
2) Period of time
So, you could say that the world was created in 6 periods of time.
Have a look at the order which it happened, and note that it happens in the correct order.
Secondly, in English we are taught to always ensure we know the purpose of the text which we are studying (e.g. to inform, persuade or entertain).
Now, the purpose of the bible is to demonstrate God''s love. So, is it necessary to explain the origins of the universe to demonstrate that? No, rather, Genesis is used to show that us humans sinned when given the choice between sin, and... the opposite... um.... mental blank - "not-sin"
As for "proof", you could take the scientific experiment carried out by non-Christian scientists. They went to a hopsital, and asked the patients which ones would agree to be prayed for in an experiment (I think there is some scientific code of ethics which forces you to get consent from people involved in experiments). Anyway, from those people who agreed, half were selected to be prayed for by some local churches.
The results showed that those who were prayed for recovered, and recovered faster than those who were not prayed for. The people in the hospital did not know whether or not they were being prayed for (meaning that it was not the placebo effect).
The obvious problem with this experiment is that only a small number of people were involved in the experiment (about 100 patients I believe). But the results from this experiment were clearly in favour of the patients receiving prayer (about 50% faster recoveries).
I don''t want to be a heretic, but I''ll risk it since you might find it interesting (and possibly educate me slightly by proving me wrong). But I believe that somewhere in the bible, in the Old Testament, there is a mention that the Earth is round. I have never seen it (nor have I read the entire Old Testament) so it may be someone misinterpreting a passage, but perhaps someone knows where it says it.
On a personal level, I have also had my own prayers answered, but I don''t think reading accounts of them will really sway your views (nor do I think that reading the above will sway them).
I''ll probably keep checking this thread, so present any proofs of Christianity being false, I''d be interested to read them. And if they refer to the bible, please include a place where we can all read them (e.g Genesis 1:1 for the creation of the universe).
Trying is the first step towards failure.
Where in the bible does it say that the world was created in 6 days? Why, it looks like it does in Genesis ("On the second day, blah blah blah"). Now go and have a look at the original Hebrew translation, and if you were a Hebrew speaker, you might realise that the word which was translated as "day" actually has 1+ meaning:
1) Day
2) Period of time
So, you could say that the world was created in 6 periods of time.
Have a look at the order which it happened, and note that it happens in the correct order.
Secondly, in English we are taught to always ensure we know the purpose of the text which we are studying (e.g. to inform, persuade or entertain).
Now, the purpose of the bible is to demonstrate God''s love. So, is it necessary to explain the origins of the universe to demonstrate that? No, rather, Genesis is used to show that us humans sinned when given the choice between sin, and... the opposite... um.... mental blank - "not-sin"
As for "proof", you could take the scientific experiment carried out by non-Christian scientists. They went to a hopsital, and asked the patients which ones would agree to be prayed for in an experiment (I think there is some scientific code of ethics which forces you to get consent from people involved in experiments). Anyway, from those people who agreed, half were selected to be prayed for by some local churches.
The results showed that those who were prayed for recovered, and recovered faster than those who were not prayed for. The people in the hospital did not know whether or not they were being prayed for (meaning that it was not the placebo effect).
The obvious problem with this experiment is that only a small number of people were involved in the experiment (about 100 patients I believe). But the results from this experiment were clearly in favour of the patients receiving prayer (about 50% faster recoveries).
I don''t want to be a heretic, but I''ll risk it since you might find it interesting (and possibly educate me slightly by proving me wrong). But I believe that somewhere in the bible, in the Old Testament, there is a mention that the Earth is round. I have never seen it (nor have I read the entire Old Testament) so it may be someone misinterpreting a passage, but perhaps someone knows where it says it.
On a personal level, I have also had my own prayers answered, but I don''t think reading accounts of them will really sway your views (nor do I think that reading the above will sway them).
I''ll probably keep checking this thread, so present any proofs of Christianity being false, I''d be interested to read them. And if they refer to the bible, please include a place where we can all read them (e.g Genesis 1:1 for the creation of the universe).
Trying is the first step towards failure.
Trying is the first step towards failure.
140
May 16, 2001 06:49 AM
I'm sad to say, that if your god exists, Neither I nor anyone else has a free will. We are often told, that the xian god is omnnipotent. in order to be omnipotent, it also has to be omniscient - It has to know everything, past, present, future. Agree? Good. Sadly enough, this causes a little problem, with the thing called "free will". There can be no such thing.
Why..? is the obvious question. It's simple. If the god knows all things throughout time, then he knows every action I perform, every decision I make throughout my life, before I have done them. If God knows exactly what I am going to do on jan 5 2010, then how can I do anything other than that? It will be predestined.
That god, being the creator of the universe, already knew at the time of creation that I would be sitting here typing this. He knew you would be reading it. it set the universe in motion, knowing everything that would happen in it.
Try doing something that you're sure will surprise the god. Something that it for sire didn't know you were going to do. If you can't - then you have no choice, but to do what the god already knew you were going to do, and your free will is therefore just a myth. If you can - well, then the god cannot be omniscient, and thus not omnipotent.
As an example, let's say you are walking down a corridor - At the end of the corridor are two identical doors. Does the god know which door you will take? If he does, is it at all possible for you to take the other door? You have no choice in the matter, you have no free will. If the god does not know exactly which door you will take, then he quite simply is not omniscient.
Let's say that the god knows, infallibly, that in exactly five hours from the time you read this, you will hit your thumb with a hammer while putting up a shelf. Let's start at the beginning...
Fourteen billion years ago, the god created the universe. At the instant of creation, The god knew the precise details of every event during the entire history of the newly-created universe. It knew how the hydrogen would disperse, and eventually condense to form stars and galaxies. It knew which stars would go nova in order to create the elements that will form planets, and it knew which planets would form in orbits suitable to develop and sustain life. It knew how the moon would orbit the Earth, making tides and washing the beaches. It knew where and when the first self-replicating molecules would form, and when the first amphibians would step onto land. It knew about the rise and fall of the reptiles, dinosaurs, birds, mammals, flowering plants and all the other freak accidents that directed the genetic flow through the millions of generations of plants and animals - the meteor strikes, forest fires, plagues, floods and landslides. It knew exactly what would happen to every single one of your ancestors - who would be born, who would die, who would marry whom, and so on, until you appeared. He knew everything that would happen to you in your life - where you would go to school, your exam grades, what jobs you had, where you lived, why you decided to build a shelf, where you earned the money to buy the hammer, where you made marks on the wall to get the shelf nice and level. All these things it knew would come to be as it created the universe, right up to the exact microsecond that the hammer hit your thumb. When He created it all, He did so sure in the knowledge that at a certain point in time, you would be swearing loudly and holding your thumb under the cold tap (as well as, of course, everything else happening in the universe at that time). God created the universe so that events would unfold in this exact manner. He could have made it so that you were never born, or so that humans never appeared. It could have made it so that every single thing happened differently, or everything was the same apart from your accident.
Either way, you have no say in the matter, and free will does not exist, as it was predestined. Assuming that there is an omnipotent, infallible god behind it all, everything you do must necessarily happen.
The obvious counter-argument here, is that the god would just be an observer, not influencing us. But this counter-argument does not hold water. If I took a ride in a time-machine to tomorrow, and wrote down all your actions that day, and then handed you the paper I wrote it on, and told you not to read it until the end of the day. Sure enough, I would not have interfered with your free will, because I was just an observer. The god, on the other hand created the universe, and at that moment it knew excactly what was going to happen, everywhere - throughout time. It is in other words directly responsible for all our actions - because it obviously, since it knew what was going to happen - wanted it to happen that way. Otherwise it would have created it in another way.
What I have demonstrated here, can lead to three diffrent conclusions:
1) We do indeed have a free will, but the god does not exist.
2) The god exists, but we do not have a free will.
3) The god esists, but is not omnipotent.
So, if your god exists, I have no choice but to be an atheist, and write this. I was then already doomed to hell by the time the universe was created.
Edited by - mr BiCEPS on May 16, 2001 7:55:49 AM
Why..? is the obvious question. It's simple. If the god knows all things throughout time, then he knows every action I perform, every decision I make throughout my life, before I have done them. If God knows exactly what I am going to do on jan 5 2010, then how can I do anything other than that? It will be predestined.
That god, being the creator of the universe, already knew at the time of creation that I would be sitting here typing this. He knew you would be reading it. it set the universe in motion, knowing everything that would happen in it.
Try doing something that you're sure will surprise the god. Something that it for sire didn't know you were going to do. If you can't - then you have no choice, but to do what the god already knew you were going to do, and your free will is therefore just a myth. If you can - well, then the god cannot be omniscient, and thus not omnipotent.
As an example, let's say you are walking down a corridor - At the end of the corridor are two identical doors. Does the god know which door you will take? If he does, is it at all possible for you to take the other door? You have no choice in the matter, you have no free will. If the god does not know exactly which door you will take, then he quite simply is not omniscient.
Let's say that the god knows, infallibly, that in exactly five hours from the time you read this, you will hit your thumb with a hammer while putting up a shelf. Let's start at the beginning...
Fourteen billion years ago, the god created the universe. At the instant of creation, The god knew the precise details of every event during the entire history of the newly-created universe. It knew how the hydrogen would disperse, and eventually condense to form stars and galaxies. It knew which stars would go nova in order to create the elements that will form planets, and it knew which planets would form in orbits suitable to develop and sustain life. It knew how the moon would orbit the Earth, making tides and washing the beaches. It knew where and when the first self-replicating molecules would form, and when the first amphibians would step onto land. It knew about the rise and fall of the reptiles, dinosaurs, birds, mammals, flowering plants and all the other freak accidents that directed the genetic flow through the millions of generations of plants and animals - the meteor strikes, forest fires, plagues, floods and landslides. It knew exactly what would happen to every single one of your ancestors - who would be born, who would die, who would marry whom, and so on, until you appeared. He knew everything that would happen to you in your life - where you would go to school, your exam grades, what jobs you had, where you lived, why you decided to build a shelf, where you earned the money to buy the hammer, where you made marks on the wall to get the shelf nice and level. All these things it knew would come to be as it created the universe, right up to the exact microsecond that the hammer hit your thumb. When He created it all, He did so sure in the knowledge that at a certain point in time, you would be swearing loudly and holding your thumb under the cold tap (as well as, of course, everything else happening in the universe at that time). God created the universe so that events would unfold in this exact manner. He could have made it so that you were never born, or so that humans never appeared. It could have made it so that every single thing happened differently, or everything was the same apart from your accident.
Either way, you have no say in the matter, and free will does not exist, as it was predestined. Assuming that there is an omnipotent, infallible god behind it all, everything you do must necessarily happen.
The obvious counter-argument here, is that the god would just be an observer, not influencing us. But this counter-argument does not hold water. If I took a ride in a time-machine to tomorrow, and wrote down all your actions that day, and then handed you the paper I wrote it on, and told you not to read it until the end of the day. Sure enough, I would not have interfered with your free will, because I was just an observer. The god, on the other hand created the universe, and at that moment it knew excactly what was going to happen, everywhere - throughout time. It is in other words directly responsible for all our actions - because it obviously, since it knew what was going to happen - wanted it to happen that way. Otherwise it would have created it in another way.
What I have demonstrated here, can lead to three diffrent conclusions:
1) We do indeed have a free will, but the god does not exist.
2) The god exists, but we do not have a free will.
3) The god esists, but is not omnipotent.
So, if your god exists, I have no choice but to be an atheist, and write this. I was then already doomed to hell by the time the universe was created.
Edited by - mr BiCEPS on May 16, 2001 7:55:49 AM
140
May 16, 2001 07:08 AM
quote:
Original post by ragonastick
I don't want to be a heretic, but I'll risk it since you might find it interesting (and possibly educate me slightly by proving me wrong). But I believe that somewhere in the bible, in the Old Testament, there is a mention that the Earth is round. I have never seen it (nor have I read the entire Old Testament) so it may be someone misinterpreting a passage, but perhaps someone knows where it says it.
In several places in the bible, the sky is referred to as a vault, with the stars stuck on it. Genesis 1 refers to water above this vault. (Just like the babylonian cosmology) The Book of Revelation says that the stars will someday fall out of the sky like figs from a tree. The bible says little about the shape of the earth, referring in one place to the "circle" of the Earth, and in another place to the "four corners" (flat square?!) of the Earth. In one of the Gospels, the Devil tempted Jesus by taking him up a mountain where he could see "all the kingdoms of the world". This is - for obvious reasons impossible if the earth is spherical. Similarly, in Daniel, there is a vision of a tree "visible to the earth's furthest bounds".
But hey - you can always use interpretations of the scripture to "prove" almost whatever you wish.
Edited by - mr BiCEPS on May 16, 2001 8:16:55 AM
May 16, 2001 07:30 AM
for all of you that think the ''great flood'' is true, scientists have found NO EVIDENCE whatsoever that it actually occured. The closest think was a flood of the black sea, (correct me if im wrong with the name) which was near where christianity started...
so the christians thought the whole world flooded when in actuallity, it was only a small part of it.
Even if it did flood the whole world, where the HELL did all the water come from? come on churchies, whered the water come from???
i thought so...
You know that if 2 people like brother and sister, have sex, and have kids, the kid could be deformed, right??? yes
well,
If all humanity started from adam and eve, isnt that pretty incest-full? so shouldnt we all be deformed and shit?
oooo ya thats right....
You say taht something had to create us and the universe, yet you say that god has always been there adn always will be. Why wouldnt that be applied to the universe too?
come on smart guys...
If god is so perfect, why couldnt he write a book that didnt contradict itself?
booya...
the future cant be told, by god, the bible, or anyone. If i goto work today, i could just go kill everyone there. On the other hand i could just goto work and work.
Now what i decide would drastically changes the future. Now how would anything be able to tell what i will do? THEY CANT!
oh oh oh, now how many things does that disprove in religion? ohh wait i dont have enough fingers or toes to count that...
(i know some of you dumbasses will make a comment on i cant count past my fingers or toes, i assure you i can... dumbasses)
mr BiCEPS, i like your talk...
and thanks some more david, your a big help to my cause (MWUAHAHAhahahahahahah ahahaha hahah ahhh hehe eheheh ehhhhh... anyway)
thats enough for now i think.
so the christians thought the whole world flooded when in actuallity, it was only a small part of it.
Even if it did flood the whole world, where the HELL did all the water come from? come on churchies, whered the water come from???
i thought so...
You know that if 2 people like brother and sister, have sex, and have kids, the kid could be deformed, right??? yes
well,
If all humanity started from adam and eve, isnt that pretty incest-full? so shouldnt we all be deformed and shit?
oooo ya thats right....
You say taht something had to create us and the universe, yet you say that god has always been there adn always will be. Why wouldnt that be applied to the universe too?
come on smart guys...
If god is so perfect, why couldnt he write a book that didnt contradict itself?
booya...
the future cant be told, by god, the bible, or anyone. If i goto work today, i could just go kill everyone there. On the other hand i could just goto work and work.
Now what i decide would drastically changes the future. Now how would anything be able to tell what i will do? THEY CANT!
oh oh oh, now how many things does that disprove in religion? ohh wait i dont have enough fingers or toes to count that...
(i know some of you dumbasses will make a comment on i cant count past my fingers or toes, i assure you i can... dumbasses)
mr BiCEPS, i like your talk...
and thanks some more david, your a big help to my cause (MWUAHAHAhahahahahahah ahahaha hahah ahhh hehe eheheh ehhhhh... anyway)
thats enough for now i think.
--------------------------------------------------------------If it sounds like a good idea, do it. It is much harder to get permission than it is to apologize.
122
May 16, 2001 08:00 AM
Buddah, Vishnu, Alla, Zeus and 1000 painted rocks in africa are highly pissed off at this christian-centric debate about religion.
You westerners think you are all philosophical and enlightened, when in fact you are like warring aboriginal tribes compairing painted rocks, and the most elaborate rock wins.
Some of you try to refute the bible with ''scientific proof'', as if it was another religion itself...
Most of the scientific-minded people out here are doing little more than spouting off ''scientific doctrine'' they hear from infotainment programs.
Science is so much like a religion now it is scary. Just think about how prophets are like scientists.. how experiments are like rituals.. How people who love science go around pushing it on everybody like some sort of missionary who has found ''the truth''.
God forbid I become a science heretic though.. I''ll get thrown in the looney bin.
You westerners think you are all philosophical and enlightened, when in fact you are like warring aboriginal tribes compairing painted rocks, and the most elaborate rock wins.
Some of you try to refute the bible with ''scientific proof'', as if it was another religion itself...
Most of the scientific-minded people out here are doing little more than spouting off ''scientific doctrine'' they hear from infotainment programs.
Science is so much like a religion now it is scary. Just think about how prophets are like scientists.. how experiments are like rituals.. How people who love science go around pushing it on everybody like some sort of missionary who has found ''the truth''.
God forbid I become a science heretic though.. I''ll get thrown in the looney bin.
134
May 16, 2001 08:09 AM
Um... just as we consider the world right now to be Earth, and possibly in the future we will consider the world to include other planets because they are where we dwell, the people of biblical tmes considered the "world" a much smaller place. There is in fact evidence of a flood around the time of such happenings, and the size of it would have been enough to spread over the entire land.
Ok, I think my point about the purpose of Genesis has been missed. I''d advise you to reread that. And as a side note, where does it say that Adam and Eve are the only humans created by God? Where does it say that they didn''t evolve from other creatures?
Predestination: It does make you feel secure having a God who knows exactly what will happen, if something did take God by suprise then obviously he would not be very powerful. So does that mean we have no choice? Well, you could look at it that way, since the human body is essentially atoms and stuff like that which obeys the laws of physics. Because we are part of our universe, we are predictable. We have choice, because we have the experience of consciousness.
Do you believe that Jesus walked on Earth? Why do you believe what you believe?
If not, do you believe that Plato existed? Why do you believe he existed?
The way you have taken the references to the Earth being flat out of context (the figure of speech "the 4 corners of the globe" is still used today for example, the fact that the book of Revelations is a book describing a dream) makes me think that the passage I was referring to was probably taken out of context too, so I won''t persue it any further, thanks for pointing those passages out.
Goodnight
Trying is the first step towards failure.
Ok, I think my point about the purpose of Genesis has been missed. I''d advise you to reread that
. And as a side note, where does it say that Adam and Eve are the only humans created by God? Where does it say that they didn''t evolve from other creatures?Predestination: It does make you feel secure having a God who knows exactly what will happen, if something did take God by suprise then obviously he would not be very powerful. So does that mean we have no choice? Well, you could look at it that way, since the human body is essentially atoms and stuff like that which obeys the laws of physics. Because we are part of our universe, we are predictable. We have choice, because we have the experience of consciousness.
Do you believe that Jesus walked on Earth? Why do you believe what you believe?
If not, do you believe that Plato existed? Why do you believe he existed?
The way you have taken the references to the Earth being flat out of context (the figure of speech "the 4 corners of the globe" is still used today for example, the fact that the book of Revelations is a book describing a dream) makes me think that the passage I was referring to was probably taken out of context too, so I won''t persue it any further, thanks for pointing those passages out.
Goodnight
Trying is the first step towards failure.
Trying is the first step towards failure.
This topic is closed to new replies.
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