quote: Original post by PugPenguin
Something is wrong... don''t you think? I think the problem there is that it totally lacks the classic High Level story, from which RPGs earned its name over the last decade. It may be full of Low Level Story, but not High Level. RPG is "supposed" to have conversations with NPCs. You converse with NPCs to construct the story, at the same time as the story being the backbone of NPC conversation. It''s perhaps a two way exchange - Converse, and have High Level Story. Or No Conversation, No High Level Story. No Pain, No Gain ... sort of.

Nice thoughts.

That''s part 2 of the beliefs of Wavinator & I. We don''t feel that a high-level story is absolutetly crucial. Sure, it would be wonderful to have one, but like you said computers aren''t at that point right now to truly write a high level story using true creativity yet. So, IMO, a system like this is more interesting than a constricting, completely linear story.



A CRPG in development...

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

There are a few things I want to say. I hope I remember them long enough to type them!

I think one thing that can help low level stories in RTSs is the idea of unit experience. This has probably been done in computer games already, I don''t know. But I''m certain that the idea has been used in war simulation boardgames.

The basic concept is that a unit which has engaged in battle and survived earns a certain distinction. Usually, the unit is given some sort of combat bonus. But I think that keeping track of a unit''s performance can be useful in highlighting a low level story. Recalling the exploits of Tank Brigade Bravo, or something like that, might add something to the overall story. And, of course, this would be different every time the game is played.

I agree that RPGs probably have more artistic potential than any other genre. They''ve got a long way to go, of course. But I think RPGs offer more artistic possibilities than any other genre.

One important thing to keep in mind is that there is no natural law concerning genre. A genre is simply a group of games which share certain similarities. So while a game must be within certain bounds to be considered part of a particular genre, there is no need to feel confined to the typical limits of a genre.

Concerning the inability of current AI to simulate human emotion or thought to a great degree, I don''t see that as a reason to shy away from the attempt. The fact that AI cannot currently do what a designer wants only means that AI has not yet sufficiently evolved to the point of being that useful.

But I don''t feel that designers should leave the work of innovative AI routines to professors at research universities. I''m certain that much revolutionary progress in the computer field has been the result of game designers and programmers, hobbyists, and people with an interest in electrical engineering. So maybe it''s better not to shy away from AI which simulates human behavior. Perhaps it''s better to tinker with it until it does do what we would like?

There was something else I wanted to say, but I''ve forgotten what it was. Shoot!

Oh, wait! Now I remember. I think Pug Penguin had some good ideas there. But they seem to be a bit unfocused. Perhaps it would be better to consider one aspect at a time. Maybe you could create a prototype which utilizes only a few of the features you mentioned.

If you''re not a programmer (I''m not sure,) you could also try creating a board game which uses some of those ideas. It''s not the same as a computer prototype, of course. But it might help you to explore your ideas.

And here''s the last thing. I like the idea of a game with the monsters breeding, etc. But I think that it would be necessary to limit just how powerful the monsters could become. And perhaps, rather than having a goal of killing one big monster, it could be more of an open ended game. Imagine Sim City, but with this monster scenario. Instead of creating a successful city by sound economic and zoning policy, the player would need simply to keep his town from being destroyed by monsters. The monsters cannot be defeated, but the player must do everything possible to allow his people to survive the monstrous onslaught.

Of course, you need to choose what your game will be like. I just thought that might be an idea you might find interesting.


Jonathon

quote: "Mathematics are one of the fundamentaries of educationalizing our youths." -George W. Bush

quote: Original post by PugPenguin

Something is wrong... don''t you think? I think the problem there is that it totally lacks the classic High Level story, from which RPGs earned its name over the last decade. It may be full of Low Level Story, but not High Level. RPG is "supposed" to have conversations with NPCs. You converse with NPCs to construct the story, at the same time as the story being the backbone of NPC conversation. It''s perhaps a two way exchange - Converse, and have High Level Story. Or No Conversation, No High Level Story.

Thanks for the very good (and astute) post!

I''m not yet convinced that you have to give up conversation with this system. If you consider the purpose and role conversation serves, you might see that it:

A) relates events
B) gives character''s flavor
C) informs about the state of the game world
D) directs the player

I think all but B are a matter of filtered log data. If the system has to create an event, it should be able to register the event. The registered event could be sorted or filtered based on age, knowledge, locality, etc. The diplomacy model in empire games already does a lot of this, so I''m gambling that a heavily expanded version of the same will do.

B is a bit more problematic. You don''t want everyone to relate the story in a generic fashion. This definitely needs precreated content. I think, though, that it might be possible to redefine how NPCs communicate with each other and the player. Rather than everything being prose, we may be able to make use of exposition, which is theoretically easier to automate.

These are all just guesses until I can make more headway on some other problems, though.

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Just waiting for the mothership...

Lol. I don''t even to know where to begin, but if I reply to every post, this will get too long so I''ll just reply in open form.

I do also believe, as Nazrix, that High level story isn''t absolutely necessary for RPGs. I do think, though, that the RPG genre is built around the image/impression of High level story. Like I said, people quite often "expect" RPGs to take a certain form.

This "genre" certainly is OUR perception. This point was made by Jonathon earlier, and I do agree. Perhaps RPG will go through a process of redefinition in the future. I guess all it takes is ONE amazing new generation RPG to hit the shelf.

Few things I better clarify though. When I talked of how freeform RPG (of traditional design) is impossible right now, I wasn''t saying that we should stop trying. We need someone to keep challenging it at all times... till we have a break-through. And yes, I am a programmer, if more of a hobby than not. lol. But I''ve always taken it seriously, it''s a fascinating science for me (theoretical physics is my own subject though).
As for that monster idea I was on about, I was NOT saying that I''m making one of those I was just illustrating how the principle of iteration can produce that "Even the Lead Programmer Does Not Know How His Game Should Be Played" effect. That monster example was just a convenient way to show how and why Strategy genre seemed to often have more freeform. And how it *could* be applied to RPGs. The specifics of implementing that example is not an issue.

Finally, on the points made by Wavinator above. You are quite right about that break-downs on the role of conversation. They certainly do seem to be mostly filtered log data, as you say it. So perhaps we have to work on the "dynamic-generation" on conversation. So the events which take place (e.g. interaction between the player and those mating monsters) triggers the engine to generate a new set of strings that NPCs speak in towns. And your point (B) is the main problem, I agree. And I think that''s a big problem.

But then, this depends on what one expects from RPG, I guess. I expect a drama of every scale in RPGs. When I was in my teens, my brain used to do a lot of work generating fantasies, while I was playing an RPG. The best thing, though, was that computer RPG played the role of other "human beings". They were marely preprogrammed behaviours and typed text. But I liked how pretty 8 bit girls running up to me shouting for help. I was like, yeah come into my arms my darling. Yo lass, you stick with me and you won''t die! Then I''d kick the mob''s butt to high heaven. My ero would be mega boosted when I heard the NPC go, "Wow! You are so strong!", "Thank you for saving us!" etc. lol. The entire town gagging to see The Hero (that''s me). In a way, all these stuff can be entirely recreated in our heads. And we DO create those in our brains alone when we are young. But as we get older, most of us lose that unbelievable magnitude and power of imagination. Once we enter our 20s, most of us stop doing that "silly kid''s thing"... and those 8 bit girls and preset text will no longer tickle my fancy.

A VERY advanced human-like AI, though, can remedy it. And THAT is what I''m after. Call it a madman''s fantasy dream lol. But I hope one day I will see it. Perhaps not. But I hope I will. Right now, they aren''t good enough for me. I''m being selfish in saying that, perhaps. But I can''t help being honest about it. If AI is premature, that suddenly gives me that impression of "silly kid''s thing". It''s not, but I end up getting that impression. Getting bored is a matter of time then.

A solid High level story can "hide" that premature nature of AI. I dip myself into the world of RPG and get stuck in the amazingly-told High level story. Like reading a book. I get into some sort of hypnotic coma, taken over by the story. Then the NPCs seem to fit in all of a sudden, even with preset text and crap AI. Without the strong High level story, though, the flaw in NPC AI becomes so exposed, so apparent that I feel out of place. In some cases, it makes me feel that it was waste of money buying it.

Anyway, thats my side of the story. I understand that different people expect different things from RPGs. RPG is such a diverse genre anyway. While that may be the cause of big differences in opinion, it''s perhaps the beauty of RPGs and why so many people like it in a hundred flavours.