Great ideas never speak for themselves. To pitch anything you need to start by making people like you. After they like you, they'll pay attention when you pitch your idea.

To make people like you:

1) don't start out bitching about how you wasted the last 20 years of your life. No one cares.
2) don't blame the entire industry for their failure to grasp your visionary idea. It sounds childish.
3) don't make their first thought be "what a douche" and their second though be "wall of text rolls a 20. wall of text crits. you die"

You come off as arrogant, whiny, and uncompromising. Given that, it doesn't make any difference what your idea is; there's no way anyone would want to work with you.

Assuming you get that chip off your shoulder, you need a single page Design Document that summarizes your game beautifully and instantly grabs a hold of the reader. If you grab me on page 1, I'll read to page 10. By that point every major aspect of your game should have been conveyed. The other 190 pages should be there to give me details only if i want to read them. Anything past page 10 will almost certainly remain unread and should therefore not be necessary to convey your core design.

-me

Huh. No wonder people seem to hate game designers so much. They really go out of their way to earn the disdain.

It's a truth that exists in basically every industry in which you have to work with other people:

People don't want to hire you if you sound and/or act like a dick.

To be a (good and well-respected) film composer, your personality almost matters more than your actual compositional ability. You have to be able to work with the director to ensure that your music bolsters his vision of the film.

To be a (good and well-respected) programmer on the team, you have to interact well with the other members of the team (And frequently, other teams). You can't stomp around about how life is unfair and how other people can't code and blah blah blah whine whine moan.

Similarly, to be a (good and well-respected) designer, you have to be able to sell your ideas in an engaging and friendly fashion, not sound like an emo gamer during a full moon on the solstice. This is the portion that you have failed.

Your post makes you come across like The Second Coming of John Romero. The last time I heard someone tout their design SO HEAVILY, I spent the first hour of the game punching giant mosquitoes with spiked gloves before I gave up and threw the disk straight into the trash bin.

Also, similar to scriptwriting for movies, it's easier to read a design when the writer of said design has maybe proofread it. Preferably, they will have proofread it WELL.

If you want people to take your design skills seriously, you have to present yourself in a professional manner. Neither your personality in your posts nor your ability to write consistent, good English strike me as professional. It surprises me that you got hired at ALL, if you presented yourself even half as badly to that company as you have presented yourself on these forums.

You are not God's Gift To Design. Remember: it doesn't matter how good the script is if nobody wants to work with you to make it into a movie.

When I first started on gamedev I had just had a similar experience - I was turned down by a major company after I had a really positive feeling I was going to get a job as apprentice designer, and with what I still feel is an awesome portfolio of games designs. I thought I'd share that with that community, and the reaction, given the level of my frustration was pretty harsh , a lot of it was just twats wanting to have a go at the guy who was arrogant enough to think he had good ideas! But I don't really see that in this thread, you've been given 3 maybe 4 practical bits of advice that would raise your chances dramatically of at least getting an overview of the game read, and the possibility of an interview.

1.Keep it short, sweet and graphic.
2.Include refernces that say its worth reading, don't overhype it.
3.As much as you love pirate dawn if its 9 years old its probably had its day. Look at it this way. If you make it as a designer, you can always come back to it one day. and creativity requires you to murder your children. Design better simpler games, then start over again until you have something so fricking good that p eople just can't turn it down.
4.PROVE YOURSELF. Thats what I had to learn. The risk is simply to high to hire someone who hasn't even actually completed a game.
In the future, you might only need to make 1 good game, maybe not even 1, young guys might be poached from college when this industry catches up with other industries in terms of putting intelligent people in designer recruiting positions. Someone on here even said they wouldn't employ me because I didn't lay out my skills and qualifications neatly enough for their liking. And that guy's in charge of recruitment!? In other words youre facing an uphill struggle to prove your talents without something real to show. So go away, think about it, plan for a while and then do it.

Finally, I hope you do stick around and let us know what youre going to do, and let us know how you get on. Redo the design document and I'll be more than happy to let you know what I think of the game.

cheers,

Pete

[Edited by - thelovegoose on December 7, 2007 6:42:25 PM]

I started reading your design doc and it reminded how awesome EVE online is. So, I downloaded it and started playing again, thank you.

Quote:

Original post by thelovegoose ...a lot of it was just twats wanting to have a go at the guy who was arrogant enough to think he had good ideas!

(I am not specifically talking about thelovegoose's original thread, which I have never seen, for the record)

"Arrogance" is never a good thing. There are ways to promote good ideas without acting like you're King of Space.

Trying to explain how everybody has turned you down for 20 years because they cannot fathom your awesomeness sounds arrogant.

Regardless of the truth of it, bragging about "single-handedly rescuing [a] game from an empty engine into shippable form" comes across as ridiculously arrogant.

Spouting that, in no uncertain terms, every MMO three years from now WILL be stealing your ideas is arrogant.

'These people can't resist my work, I give them "Gold Fever".' Arrogance? Indubitably!

I continue to assert that, no matter HOW awesome your game design is (and what I read of Pirate Dawn's document did not strike me as terribly exciting, even given the sections you specifically call out), acting like a total ass is not going to convince anybody to work with you (or, arguably more importantly, work on the game itself).

You may have designed the world's greatest game [editor's note: you haven't], but the way you are presenting yourself and your ideas are distancing people from your ideas before they even get to see them.

Learning how to communicate the greatness of your ideas without (or with a minimum of) obvious arrogance is a very important skill in the world.

I know I'm not perfect, I'm not trying to be holier-than-thou, I'm simply stating the facts as I see them.

Sound less arrogant, less bitter, more likable, and people might take you (and your ideas) more seriously.

Well, I certainly have your attention...

Plenty of long lectures about things I've understood for 15 or 20 years... I really have been at this quite a while. And this is my "retirement" web site. Saying what's been on my mind after 20 years of abuse is part of it, and it got your attention, didn't it?

As I said previously, I don't even consider Pirate Dawn to be my best game, let alone "the" best game. That is an assumption that you are all making that is clearly just wrong. But then, I knew it was an assuption that would be made. Counted on it, actually. It's one reason I'm not posting much yet, no point until the shark frenzy dies down a bit.

Pirate Dawn isn't the #2 MMO game because I made it. I made it because it is the #2 MMO game. The #2 MMO game is the best sci-fi MMO game focused on space ships that is not an RPG. At least it always has been in the past. In 1998 the idea was to "hit them where they aren't" while everyone was trying to make "the best" MMO RPG, my plan was to just take the #2 spot that nobody else was going for. If anyone really reads Pirate Dawn, and puts it together to where they actually understand what the game is... it should be obvious that it would have been the #2 MMO game after Everquest had it been released in 2002 or so. That is what I am saying.

I am also saying that, since MMO games have not evolved at all since 1998, that it would probably still be the #2 MMO game today. You should also consider that Pirate Dawn is primarily a console game, it is also on PC. Other MMO games are primarily PC games, forced onto console. The console audience is much larger than the PC audience. Additionally, pirates are pretty darn popular in China... and a small child can play Pirate Dawn.

I am not saying "look at me, I am the greatest". Pirate Dawn has a lot of unfair advantatages, that's kind of why I decided it would be a good one to make.

As for "where is the revolutionary stuff", I did direct you to a few specific examples. But really, it is the entirety of the system that revolutionizes MMO games. In Pirate Dawn the enitre game revolves aroung the "clans", rather than "clans" simply being a unrelated thing on a web site. But that then has effects throughout the entire game that make it work in a whole new way, meant to be an MMO game. Everything revolves around the "clans".

It is also a player-moddable MMO game. The PC players create mods that become available on both PC and console. These "mods" can be fundamentally vital components of the game, such as new ship systems for use within the game. But really the most "revolutionary" aspect in terms of MMO games is the new structure that it creates for such games, rather than being a single player game that a bunch of other people just happen to be playing at the same time. Anyone who truly understood Pirate Dawn would see the obvious MMO RPG clone of it that is waiting to be made.

If you want to broaden this a bit, and include space ships and space combat... than you people who are claiming to have read and understand Pirate Dawn really need to read a little closer. The computer game industry has never been able to do space/naval combat. I know "imaginary space combat" more well than any one really should, considering that it doesn't actually exist. The "combat environment" present in this game really is quite detialed and dynamic. Space is also given a structure you've never seen before, through the stealth/targeting and terrain elements of the game.

Once some people have really, truly had time to read it... they can describe some of these things for me. You have to put it all together to the point that you can envision how the game will play out in your mind to truly appreciate how this really is so very different than other MMO games. I can certainly understand anyone who has no interest in reading "that jerk's game", but I sure wouldn't be here doing this if I didn't know with certainty that it's all in the design document.

Finally, I understand that my "marketing strategy" may appear insane. At 40, and with more actual game design experience than most people working in the computer game industry, I am past making little games with some tool or any path like that. In fact, finally giving in and applying as QA really was the final straw that sent me into "retirement". Three letters telling me that these people believe that some 20 year old kid with a defree from the "Devry School of Game Design" "more closely matches the requirements of the position" was all I could take. The last straw. These people are just plain incompenant.

Someone said something about "arrogance"... "Arrogance" is telling someone with over 25 years of experience with game and simulation design that some 20 year old kid "more closely matches the requirments of the position". *That* is "arrogance".

I really do have so very much to say about game design and the industry, but i've taken the time to say it well in some articles I am trying to have published. Don't, as you are misintepreting me with regard to Pirate Dawn, do the same with the articles. I am not hyping them, or saying they contain the answers to everything. I am only saying that I've taken the time to say a lot of things well, and would prefer to allow those to address many of the things many of you are saying. So for now I am leaving many of your critisisms unansewered until I am ready to discuss them.

For now it is my hope that at least a few people will really take in Pirate Dawn. I can certainly understand if nobody cares because they think I am an idiot, but hopefully by the end of next week there will be at least a couple people who have a real knowledge of the game. If not... well, I expected this to be a very long climb uphill:-)

-- Marc Michalik (A.K.A. Pirate Lord)
Lost Art Studios -- www.piratedawn.com

Quote:

Original post by H4L I've read through most of the preview information, but to be quite honest I haven't really found anything out. I know you probably have much greater detail in the main document, but the summary is arguably the most important bit, so that I know whether or not I'd like to read more. It needs to be quick and to the point, and make me want to read on. There's no use stating over and over again how revolutionary your game will be; you should be using that time telling me, in as few words as possible, precisely why your game will be so revolutionary. For instance, I gather from the mention of "Magnetic Accelerator Cannons" and "Lightning Streams" that there is some kind of combat involved. Now, truth be told I'm a real sucker for an interesting combat system; that's always the first thing I look at when I'm deciding whether or not to buy a game. But, your summary gives nothing away other than i) the system has been designed by an exceptionally talented designer, and ii) it is as in depth as chess. What, in as few words as possible, is the combat like? Is it turn-based? Real-time? Quasi-real-time? Is it point and click? Will it feel more like a shooter or a flight-sim? Reading your summary I can probably think of a dozen totally different games that match the description. I know you're going to say "it's all in the design document", but I'm not going to read the design document until my interest is perked, and the summary has not perked my interest.

Sectons (L0.0), (M0.0), (I5.59), and (R5.0) will cover most issues relating to ships and ship systems. If you really put together the "combat environment" of Pirate Dawn you'll understand that "chess" comment.

-- Marc Michalik (A.K.A. Pirate_Lord)
Lost Art Studios -- www.piratedawn.com

One more little thing...

You are all assuming that I am trying to make Pirate Dawn. I really am not. I'm certain I'll never get to make games. There is no doubt about that at all in my mind. That's why I am "retiring". I would love to find a way to make that happen, but I'm certain that won't happen.

In the past the problem has been that I can't show anything to a game company. They'll just say they aren't interested and then make a game based on what I showed them. At least that is what happened every single time that I tried it. I'm not going to argue this point, the post I made in this forum a few days ago was pretty much the first time I've show anything to anyone in the computer game industry for since 1996.

I tried to find a way to make Pirate Dawn indepentandtly for a long time, but that is never going to happen. Especially when you can't tell anyone anything about the game, and my past experience tells me that I can't.

So, while I would love to make Pirate Dawn, I'm certain that won't happen. My experience says it is far more likely, not a certainty but far more likely, that someone out there will make a game based on Pirate Dawn than me getting to make Pirate Dawn. But I'm putting it out there because, well, why not? I really don't care anymore. I'm done.

I'll draw as much attention as possible too it, and then walk away. I see no reason not to make one last try while saying all the things I've always wanted to say about the industry. That second part is coming soon:-)

-- Marc Michalik (A.K.A. Pirate_Lord)
Lost Art Studios -- www.piratedawn.com

The point you are trying to make is that this game is so great it would be #2 on the charts for 10 years or more, but no one wants to make the game therefore the industry is F'ed up and we can all go to hell?


If it is so great, why didn't it get made? Clearly such a great game SHOULD have been made if it was truly great.

The point is, you have a crap game, seeing as I can't play it. If it was good I could play it and enjoy it, since I can't play it, I can't enjoy it, therefore it is trash that isn't worth my time.

You don't have a game, you have boring pile of words no one wants to read.

Why don't we want to read it? Because you haven't given us any real reason to. "This is great, here, just read these parts" "what? you don't think it is great? well, did you read THIS part?" These lines don't make us want to read it.

Basically, you fail to impress with your opening presentation, so your game fails. This isn't the industry's fault, this is totally your own. The only attention you are drawing to things is how bad some people are at getting a point across.

Again, if this truly was a great game, you would have been able to make it years ago.