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Microsoft is back ? =)

Started by April 18, 2001 02:11 PM
44 comments, last by FrankBlack 23 years, 9 months ago
I was mainly replying to FrankBlack, NuffSaid, and hoping that Buster was joking when he said that (I assume he was). I didn''t see anything wrong with you saying that you like Win2K as a desktop OS . I''m in a fairly irritable mood at the moment (yes, brought on by MS, seriously! But I''m not going to discuss it).

"Finger to spiritual emptiness underlying everything." -- How a C manual referred to a "pointer to void." --Things People Said
Resist Windows XP''s Invasive Production Activation Technology!
http://druidgames.cjb.net/
Null And Void: You talk like you''re one of the Win2K programming team when you say that it''s nothing but WinNT+DirectX.Of course Linux zealots are going to say stuff like that without keeping an open mind.In descussions like these,you have to forget about political hatred and look more at accomplishments.I for one LOVE Win2K.As a development platform,NOTHING comes near it.Not even *unix.Show me some C++ IDE for example that even comes CLOSE to Visual C++ in terms of ease of use and functionality.Linux programmers tend to use text editors and command line compilers most of the times. (I know,I''ve seen linux programmers in the labs at our University) And I love the windows architecture.And I for one thing cannot live without MFC in my day to day programming.I rely heavily upon it to create great win apps with great userinterfaces etc.

And another thing,what''s wrong with proprietary stuff? From a buisness side of things,you need it to generate revenue.From a user/programmer point of view,proprietary stuff from Microsoft implies standardisation.If I have DirectX,I don''t need to worry about supporting so many different video cards or force feedback joysticks.And I don''t have to worry about choosing an API for my game.I know DirectX is out there on everyone''s computer (and if they don''t have the latest version,then they update for free!) so I don''t have to go hunting for an API to suit my needs.MS provides me with everything I''ll ever want!

Now whether you want to admit it or not,you NEED these large corporations. How else would you get your processor or monitor or whatnot?

Now this isn''t a personal attack or anything on you Null and Void,but you really are being one sided (and that''s even more apparent by your signature) and you''re missing the big picture here.Is MS pulling some dirty tricks to do what they want? Most likely they are! They''re a buisness! Tell me what buisness on the planet has never resorted to dirty tricks.

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PS I''m not anti linux.I actually have a Linux box here running my home network and connecting all my computers to the internet and I also have nothing against open source software (incase you''re wondering )

I''m definately not an expert on Win2K, but I do have access to a multithousand line internal MS document set. No, I have not read it all (I''ve read one or two hundred of the pages, at most, probably less though), but what I have read doesn''t look any different from WinNT.

I suck at using Linux (I''m not being modest either, I only know how to use a couple commands: rpm, ls, and cd). I couldn''t have set up XFree86 without the help of my distro''s built in tools. I can''t even get OpenGL to work right. I''m not a Linux person (yet), so I''m not completely biased against Microsoft itself (I don''t insult Win2K/WinNT, their not halfbad, I do insult their WinME, .NET, and Product Activation technologies, for example). I''m am completely biased again the draconian business tactics of larger companies, which just happens to include Microsoft (among many more). I dislict anything that tries to prevent me from doing what I want with the software I purchased a license to. If I agree not to pirate it, I expect to be able to do anything with it (isn''t that kind of what the LGPL is about? ).

"Finger to spiritual emptiness underlying everything." -- How a C manual referred to a "pointer to void." --Things People Said
Resist Windows XP''s Invasive Production Activation Technology!
http://druidgames.cjb.net/
FYI, Win2k SP2 is in beta right now.

NaV: What are your issue''s with .NET? I''d think most linux people would be happy if MS makes a .NET port for linux. For me, I''d love to write one set of code and have it compile on both windows and linux.


Epolevne
Perhaps the third time trying to post a reply is the charm. Damn Win98 Crashes!

quote:
Original post by TheGecko

Show me some C++ IDE for example that even comes CLOSE to Visual C++ in terms of ease of use and functionality.Linux programmers tend to use text editors and command line compilers most of the times. (I know,I''ve seen linux programmers in the labs at our University) And I love the windows architecture.And I for one thing cannot live without MFC in my day to day programming.I rely heavily upon it to create great win apps with great userinterfaces etc.



*Laughing like mad* Man, you''re not your IDE! It really doesn''t matter how easy to use it is, all that matters is you can get the job done. Sometimes ease of use only promotes laziness anyway. I know there are many fine IDEs out there for the XWindows system that integrate with those command line compilers, which BTW VC++ has a command line string for it too so that part of the argument is rather silly. Now to address MFC. I''m not even going to get to far into it, I''ll rant forever if I do! MFC wouldn''t be needed if the whole WinAPI wasn''t so friggin'' dicked up. You ever program for BeOS? That''s heaven! That''s everything the WinAPI should be but isn''t. Easy to use and powerful so you get back to your real job of programming without having to go run off and reference those odd API calls your co-worker(s) used. Personally I hate the WinAPI, if I were offered two jobs, one programming for a Mac, and the other a comparable job working under Windows, I''d take the one with the Mac!

quote:

From a user/programmer point of view,proprietary stuff from Microsoft implies standardisation.



Standardization, heh, more like a complete lack thereof. It seems the boys up there in Redmond want to do their own little thing and give the finger to most everyone else.

quote:

MS provides me with everything I''ll ever want!



Don''t ask for much then do you? Just messin''!

quote:

Now whether you want to admit it or not,you NEED these large corporations. How else would you get your processor or monitor or whatnot?



Nobody said anything about not needing them. All that was said was that those big corporations don''t give a damn about you, and that is the truth. But IMO most corporate products are NOT overcharged. That''s right, I said not. Why? You have to think about the way things operate here, corporation makes a product, they sell it to retailers at a wholesale price or volume discount price that is much much cheaper than the market price. The retailers then jack up the price to whatever suits them, sometimes market value, oftentimes a bit higher. I didn''t like it when I had to shell out 200$ for Win98, but I don''t blame MS for that, I blame my local Office Depot. On the other hand, it is the up to the corporations to tell the retailers what the products market value is, so in some ways MS is to blame, but mostly not. Whether you believe it or not, your local retailer makes more money selling an MS product than MS makes selling an MS product. Sad isn''t it?

Well, there''s my two cents, take it, leave it, throw it in the fountain, I don''t really care. Just hope someone out there will at least agree with me on some of this!


~~What the hell have I done now?~~
If only debugging were as easy as killing cockroaches... *sigh*
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TheGecko :

IMHO KDevelop is much better than VC++ and I use both of them. One of them is free, the other one I had to pay 1000$ to get the same capabilities (like code optimization, a profiler, etc). I won''t even talk about file templates and the such. Speaking of templates, VC doesn''t understand partial template specialization, while gcc (g++ to be exact) has no problem with them... Can we say that VC++ isn''t ANSI?

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Free software and OpenSource don''t mean that you can''t sell your products. You can still make money of it and therefore generate revenue.

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Speaking of standarisation, OpenGL is the 3D standard (I''m not talking about games only API here). I agree that a standard API for input/network/sound/etc would be needed (SDL anyone?). Making DirectX is a great idea, but they could as well make it open source and also portable, it wouldn''t make it worst .

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I know that MS will probably be there in a long time, but designing your applications to be as portable as possible is always a good idea. Many software companies "died" when the Amiga disappeared. Creating portable apps is never a waste of time. You can''t write portable code when using a MS API as they''re designed to be highly unportable (or then you''ll have to write a library to map all the DX/Win32 calls to another API if porting to another platform). And saying that everybody has DirectX isn''t true either. Some people aren''t rich enough to afford a PC + Windows + all the apps they need, so they go for linux or BeOS.

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I don''t think that Null and Void is being one sided here. Or maybe is it because I''m one sided myself . Like he said, linux needs to mature (and hopefuly will), but is getting better and better very quickly. Gnome and KDE are very friendly (still not as much as windows 9X/ME/NT/2K, but probably as friendly as win3.11 was) and will continue to improve too.

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Finally, you too should try to forget political hatred and look at accomplishments. You''re saying that VC++ is the best IDE but it seems you have never programmed on a unix platform. I''m not saying it would change your mind, but maybe should you give it a try .

Note that nothing of this is meant to be offensive to you or anyone. I just wanted to give my (long) opinion on this.

Oh yeah and forgive my poor english please
quote:
Original post by Buster

>>So the quality of software is equivalent to how much money you make ?

Yep.

Soon people will be asking questions like "Daddy why did people ever use Linux?" and saying things like "Linux was only used by perverts looking for kiddie-pr0n, Johnny."


I have one comment on that, I think you need a reality check. I''m a Linux fan and I can tell you this, I don''t use Linux to get Kiddie-porn. Oh and btw, you''re probably doing that yourself with IE. Anyhow, You should to shut up if you don''t have anything good to say. Don''t you think? I do.

quote:
Original post by Epolevne

FYI, Win2k SP2 is in beta right now.

NaV: What are your issue''s with .NET? I''d think most linux people would be happy if MS makes a .NET port for linux. For me, I''d love to write one set of code and have it compile on both windows and linux.




I wouldn''t be counting on Microsoft to make a .NET port to linux and I wouldn''t really use them anyways.

As for the guy saying that there are no IDE like Visual Studio on Linux, you should wake up and smell the coffee, Linux has KDevelop which is extremely similar to Visual Studio, if you don''t like KDev, you can buy Code Warrior for Linux or you can even use Kylix( which is a Linux version of Delphi/BCB ).

Get to know the facts before talking people.

As for the rest, I have one other thing to say: Win2K is the best version of Windows, that I agree with as for which OS is best, none. They all have their strong points and their bad points.



"And that''s the bottom line cause I said so!"

Cyberdrek
Headhunter Soft
A division of DLC Multimedia

Resist Windows XP''s Invasive Product Activation Technology!
[Cyberdrek | ]
quote:
Original post by TheGecko

PS I''m not anti linux.I actually have a Linux box here running my home network and connecting all my computers to the internet and I also have nothing against open source software (incase you''re wondering )




If you really had a linux box, you would already know about the IDE. And KDev is quite simply and I have to admit it, a Copy of VC++ for Linux.



"And that''s the bottom line cause I said so!"

Cyberdrek
Headhunter Soft
A division of DLC Multimedia

Resist Windows XP''s Invasive Product Activation Technology!
[Cyberdrek | ]
-To the person who asked if it would hurt to port DirectX and make it open source

Of course it couldn''t hurt it, but if you spend time and money(lots) developing a product, would you respond well to people bitching at you for being selfish and monopolistic when you want to keep your property to yourself. You don''t see tiny and weird car manufacturers bitching at Nissan,Ford,etc for not releasing the blueprints to their automobiles. That example is kind of extreme, but people cant go around expecting other companies to give up their work and money to the people "just because it wouldn''t hurt it". We live in a capalistic nation, if you want to share everything, go to China

-Taphreek
-Taphreek

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