Original post by nsmadsen Rain 7- I agree with you...although I'm going to be more diplomatic about it. Your point was one of my main points in my post. Stravinsky (for those that don't know- he was a super influencial composer in the early 1900) liked to compose music with limitations. For example he wouldn't allow himself to use a certain tonality or restrict himself in some other way. He claimed that it allowed him to over come the challenge and create a better piece. If he allowed himself to do whatever he wanted- he didn't feel like the results were as good.
Well, everytime someone says that music with low-fi sounds is childish and less impactual than orchestral music, I tend to get offended. Why? A few reasons: 1) because it is likely they don't understand the context and the artistry behind the music of the older generation consoles. I don't feel that it matters whether the choice to write in a specific format was the composers own, or a limitation of their materials in the first place. Some say artistic limitation is the key to creation and I feel that this instance is no different. The difference between Stravinsky is that his limitations were harmonic, and in the case of the old school nintedo composers, the limitations lie in the technology. The amazing thing about each case is that both said artists were able to find unique and interesting ways to overcome their limitations to create something that ended up being very endearing and musically relevent. moving on, 2) because the people in question have no desire to learn anything more about that generation and style of music. Instead of broadening their horizons, some wish to dismiss the compositional element of low fi music into black and white terms, which again pisses me off to no end. Anyways, consider my outburst the result of several years of irritation so please dismiss it in the case that my rant struck any wrong notes with you. :)
I agree Tony, it can be kind of irritating sometimes. ;) To be sure, a good orchestral soundtrack in the right kind of game can go down a treat, but there are many more genres to touch. Agree with Rain too, the "retro" sound isn't necessarily devoid of merit.
Like I mentioned way up top, I'm starting these "articles" to be primarily a music4games.net thing. Well I posted the same article on that site today and got a good reply from Richard Joseph, composer of Evil Genius and Republic amongst others spanning way back to Commodore 64 days. He mentioned how he got laughed at and was labeled too contraversial when he brought up the same argument speaking at a convention. Then I found this answer he gave for an interview a few years ago that sums it up nicely:
-What do you see as the future of game music? Can, or should, it differentiate itself from other musical forms (the film soundtrack for example)?
For the time being it won't necessarily be "interactive" music. It's all very well having this aim but the reality is this- music happens over time. You need time to let the music tell the story, convey an emotion etc. If you're chopping and changing between bits of sound simply to suit on-screen action it's inevitably going to sound disorganised and quite unlike the "music" you are used to hearing. Sure, a film chops and changes with the action, but everything in a film is timed, it's completely linear, and there's no chance and no error. Games composers in the future will almost certainly be creating interactive music, but this will only come about and be done successfully when the target audience understands it and can identify with it. A bit like, say, dance music based on samples- the Beethoven audience of the early 19th century would be baffled by it but today's audience is already looking beyond.
Amen!
Tony
[EDIT] Richard Joseph was actually the audio director for those games, not the composer. [EDIT]
[Edited by - anthemaudio on July 18, 2006 3:46:24 AM]
Naturally, I think the father of this interactive music is going to be editable music by players. And I am not talking about an mp3 palyer or jukebox, but instead a system where the music is all comprised of grains, and where the player decides how those grains will be compiled. But even at that point, as R said, the players can't or won't enjoy the music as much.
It will happen, might just take a number of composers doing it, and a few years. We also need some more standardized tools to make it happen quicker.
Beeson
Sean Beeson | Composer for Media
www.seanbeeson.com
Original post by anthemaudio If you're chopping and changing between bits of sound simply to suit on-screen action it's inevitably going to sound disorganised and quite unlike the "music" you are used to hearing. Sure, a film chops and changes with the action, but everything in a film is timed, it's completely linear, and there's no chance and no error. Games composers in the future will almost certainly be creating interactive music, but this will only come about and be done successfully when the target audience understands it and can identify with it. [...]
Amen!
Tony
Personally I think that's quite a pessimistic outlook... I wonder if he's familiar with the Baldur's Gate score, or the one for Alpha Centauri? Sure, as far as interactive music goes they're as primitive as 16 colour mode was to graphics, but it's a start, it works in the context, and I seriously don't think any listeners had problems with it.
I agree that it's pretty silly to be constantly comparing game music to film music these days, but for a few different reasons. First of all, since when is "film music" a singular entity with only one kind of a sound? There's tremendous diversity within the genre, so how is it really possible to make such a broad comparison; would someone really say game music sounds "just like TV music" or "radio music"? Instead, the comparison should really be made to/about specific composers within each genre - a lot of game composers do try to sound like Williams/Shore/Zimmer (moreso the latter two). But then, a lot of film composers try their hardest to copy off of them as well, so it's not really as much of a case of littlebrotherly copycatting as it may seem.
I think that the reason we get upset over these "not just blips and bleeps anymore" comments is that they disregard the artistry in game music from previous eras, telling the same hackneyed story without understanding the progression. In older eras, the composition process was very different from film, and the result was very easily distinguishable. Nowadays, film and game composers use many of the same tools, and neither genre is noticeably restricted in audio capabilities. So in either genre, composers are pretty much just writing what's on their minds, right?
Well, not necessarily - (this is the fun part where I switch it on them!)
Game music will always be different from film music because of the fundamental component of synchronization to picture - game tracks can follow their own form, timing, and development, whereas film tracks must synchronize with that of previously defined scenes. Additionally, film music has locked form, whereas you can experience a game track in infinitely many ways (you're the one playing, hence you're controlling the visuals). With recent interactive scores, this can mean the song itself sounds different based on how you're playing. Or, on the other end, it allows for game tracks to be completely autonomous pieces that flow and develop on their own momentum (see Morrowind/Oblivion, Shadow of the Collossus). Whereas film music has to follow the direction of a scene, game music has the potential to run the full gamut between ambient and autonomous compositions. In this way, it makes a lot more sense to compare game music with programmatic Classical composition than simply pointing out ostensible sonic similarities with film stereotypes.
Another thing I've noticed (and this is just my personal opinion) is that if you simply look at orchestral game music then sure, it's easy to play the cousin-of-film-music card. But there's so many different kinds of game music being written these days, by so many different kinds of composers. I personally believe that your average game composer is far more knowledgeable in electronic music than your average film composer, and we have countless examples of outstanding electronic soundtracks. We even get pioneers in electronica scoring for games, examples like Amon Tobin writing for Splinter Cell, Tom Salta, several others. Whereas Hollywood film composers have nightmarishly complicated teams of orchestrators, score preparers, recording/mixing/mastering engineers, and even "synthestrators", game composers are more often expected to be a one-stop-shop for musical content - how many of you think that John Williams knows what a brickwall limiter is? You might even go so far as to say that films are trying to sound more like *games*, what with the recent wave of electronically charged film (and television) scores in the last decade or so. We've been doing electronics since forever, only recently has it become fashionable in films and it's tough to believe that that happened without someone somewhere paying attention to game scores.
Basically my point is that it's not worth getting worried over a fusion of game and film music. Eventually the unimaginative/underinformed reporters will get tired of printing that same story over and over again, and it won't be as big a selling point to say "MUSIC BY JOE-HOLLYWOOD-COMPOSER!! :O :O" on the back of the game box (especially considering how often that means they only wrote the main theme and nothing else). I understand that a lot of people are upset that they're not hearing their old time game favorites anymore, personally I think it's just a matter of context. There's a place for everything - some modern games will require cinematic drama, others will require elegiac artistry, and others will require chiptunes. The only reason it seems like things are changing is simply that game technology now allows for more cinematic scenes, and removes the old restrictions on audio - so, now we can write cinematic music for cinematic scenes. The trick is not to shoot for emulating film music (or even cinematic gameplay) but rather to aspire even higher - you spend a lot more time and personal involvement with a game than with a film, you attribute yourself with your character far more closely, there's so much more emotional potential in a game than a film. The music has more potential to be autonomous and as intro or extroverted as you please, whereas with film it's a constant battle against dialogue.
Finally, about composers doing both film and games, I think that's pretty unsurprising. Being a composer is more of a gamble than a day in Vegas, you have to try as many things as you can until you find a niche somewhere. It makes more sense to say "this is what Will Roget sounds like" and write that way for whatever outlet you end up in than to say "okay time to write film music, which will sound different from game music." It's a little more questionable when a major film composer deigns to write a "game soundtrack", but there's still something to be said about trying out a new medium. The first film composers were refugees from the Classical music world, and cought some flak for being Classical's little brother, but now we see far more soundtrack CD sales than Classical ones. I'm starting to think people like game music even more than film - game music enthusiasts seem more numerous (and fervent) than film music ones, and the music is right up at the forefront of the experience. That and consider how much more potential for diversity and complexity game music has....
....Long story (post?) short, I don't think we have anything to worry about, and a heck of a lot to look forward to.
Will, thanks so much for your input. You bring up a ton of good points and I'm sure a lot of people will start to think about some things differently after reading. There's always a different way of putting things.
Of course you've had all that practice with your work on the thesaurus. (sorry, had to...)
And that is a narrow perspective I put forward in the regards to film music, pinning it down to big orchestral. Truly, I just want everyone to start looking forward and think of new ways to move game music forward. Interactivity is only part of the puzzle. The tools you have and the sample libraries you own should not dictate what your music sounds like.
You know... you are literally the first person in my entire life to make a joke about the thesaurus. I used to joke about it myself but no one knew what a thesaurus was, so I just gave up... my dad still tells every waitress and hotel concierge that he wrote it. ;-) (and no, they don't get it either)
Hah anyways, sorry for the tangent - you make some really interesting posts that allow me to go on those fun lengthy diatribes :)
------------------ Wilbert Roget, II Composer RogetMusic.com
