Quote: Original post by tribal_warrior
You have to keep in mind that the more companies you get on board just from meetings and talking basic details before you even begin putting down the official business plan on paper, means it will be much easier to get qualified people on board. In fact lining up experienced developers, designers, producers is quite easy when you have experience and have next generation technology lined up for licensing as well as studios ready for porting, outsourcing and other tasks among many things. However- Im not looking for designers, programmers or producers.

Im looking for businessman (visionaries) who are looking for an opportunity to get in at ground level in what will be a large independent studio.

Like Tom and Odin, I am a quite confused by conflicting information in your posts.

• You said you already have "started [your] first indie game development studio [that] is thriving successfully today".
  
• Your name is listed under "Founder" of Reverie.
  
• That implies that you (the plural you, meaning you personally and your other founding friends) already have access to skilled developers and contacts within the industry.
  
• It implies that you know what it takes to create a new business and bring it to success.
  
• It implies that you have qualities of an entrepreneurial leader, able to find a direction, see opportunity, and take it.
  
• It implies that you are able to manage people and game projects successfully.
  
• It implies you know how to work with a budget, make proposals to VCs and publishers, and manage people.
  
• And most importantly, it implies that you have money from your earlier ventures.

If those are true, it seems that you would be best served looking for experienced managers (not developers you say) with a relatively inexpensive job listing.

But your posts seem to imply those are not true. That's the source of the confusion.

• You have a rough estimated budget in Word. I know I don't keep my personal books in Word, and I know the accountants at my current job don't keep them in Word, either. I would imagine a successful business owner would use something more tailored for tracking money and numbers.
  
• You are looking for a quality team of people -- and for some reason you are turning your back on the existing, successful, experienced people at Reverie.
  
• You want people to work for free on the promise that a venture might someday make some money and give a portion to them.
  
• You want a "unique company concept", which implies a lot of risk that a company owner wouldn't usually take.
  
• You want an "extremely ambitious multi platform premiere title", something that is also very risky and expensive, and again a risk that experienced business owners rarely take.

Finally, you said...
>> this post however is focused on locating individuals to help develop these business plans, overviews, pro formas etc.

And that one, more than anything else, strikes me as odd.

I don't know of ANY game developers who have titles under their belt AND are independently wealthy (don't need to get paid) AND want to work for somebody else. Generally these people start new companies of their own with their trusted business friends who are similarly successful rather than hoping to find some new person who will become successful. Unpaid positions are the realm of high school and college kids who are looking for an 'in', not something for experienced professionals.

Assuming you have already created successful businesses before, I cannot fathom why you would search for unpaid, hopefully skilled workers and trust the future of the business to them.

While writing and editing this post, I realized what I believe is the true reason.

After a bit of thought I can think of exatly one reason for this. You want a business venture that won't cost you if it fails. By your own description, it is a "very unique studio working on an extremely ambitious multi platform premiere title." That is a VERY risky business venture, and can be expensive.


Now I think I understand:

You want other people to take the majority of the risk, and you get the majority of the profit.

That is not a new and unique business model.

There are several books you can likely get at your local library that help you develop these documents and others you need to present to VC types. I would tell you their names but my business partner does the business end of things as I hate it. I would ask him but he's on vacation. Anyways they were, I beleive this was one of them:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1584502142/002-0757979-8227246?v=glance&n=283155

@Mike: Thanks for the input!

@"frob":

You might be surprised by the level of talent I have found rummaging around small boards like these and others. Some extremely talented people have been located from posts similar to this.

Granted however, the level of talent I am looking for I might not be able to locate here. I have already posted ads elsewhere but I have always made it a point to make posts similar to this one on forums as it has never ceased to amaze me the level of talent that can be located from it.

So you know, there was no conflicting information posted. However, apparently you have misunderstood some listed information so I will do my best to clarify some points for you.

1- I am NOT looking for a "quality team of people". Locating quality employees can be done quite easily. No where in this post do I state I am looking for a "quality team of people". I am looking for individuals looking to collaborate on business development. This was stated several times, you just did not grasp it.

2- I am NOT "turning my back on the talented people at Reverie". If you had a corporation you had founded and you were starting another you WOULD know that you should never mix companies that are meant to be individual and unique from each other. Secondly, you WOULD NOT have the most remote of inclinations to pull away a talented team from the work they are already performing. Clearly- you have joined the ranks with Tom as someone who has lots of advice for start up companies who has never sucessfully started one (let alone is currently operating a thriving game studio).

3- Any true entrepreneur knows that no matter how successful he has become- he is always looking out for new and innovative companies to start or work with. So your comment about "not knowing ANY" who were willing to work with/for someone else leads me to question the number of entrepreneurs you actually know.

4- "That is a VERY risky business venture, and can be expensive. "

Yes, quite expensive. The budget currently stands at several million and growing and I already have contacts with both Angel and Venture Capitalists who have ALREADY expressed interest and are waiting quite patiently on me.

4- "You want other people to take the majority of the risk, and you get the majority of the profit."

That was a VERY simplistic and uneducated statement frob. Firstly, this is not a high risk investment for someone to collaborate on business development. There is no monetary risk and the time spent in collaboration on business development is not going to be remotely close to any level of "high risk".

5- "Now I think I understand."

Clearly that is not the case. But if you do have any further questions, I would be more than happy to address them for you frob.

Best Regards,
Micah Hymer

Quote:
Firstly, this is not a high risk investment for someone to collaborate on business development. There is no monetary risk and the time spent in collaboration on business development is not going to be remotely close to any level of "high risk".

Yes, it is high risk. Time is money. Even if this prospective person does not need to invest any money in your startup, by spending time working with you (doing any kind of work) and not getting paid, they are losing money. They could be spending that time working elsewhere getting actual money; it's simply not a safe investment (of their time).

There are only two kinds of people who can work for free like this: students and people who are independantly wealthy. The latter category probably won't be interested (but maybe) and the former category seems like they'd be vastly underqualified for the position you want.

You're right, there are lots of very qualified, intelligent folks on these forums. Because of that, I would suggest refraining from from taking pot-shots at the qualifications and level of experience of the posters who have already replied. It is unwise to make the assumption that anybody you don't know who is offering advice contrary to what you presumably want to hear must have less experience in a field than you. You are very likely to end up with your foot in your mouth.

(Note: I have never started my own company. But I do have a brain in this thick head of mine, and it doesn't take much to see the serious danger in this plan.)

The high risk is in an opportunity cost. Somebody could spend their time working for free and hoping for a paycheck later on, or they could be spending that same time working for money. How do they eat or pay their rent? Basement studios are a group of friends who get together and eat ramen noodles, not professional business ventures.

So heres where I am confused:

- You are looking for an executive level businessman.
- By your own admission, you are not highly experienced in game business.
- You want to start a second studio before your first one has even released a title and proven itself.
- You want experienced people to trust that this is a good enough idea to risk their time and effort without compensation.

Good luck.

@jpetrie: "It is unwise to make the assumption that anybody you don't know who is offering advice contrary to what you presumably want to hear must have less experience in a field than you. You are very likely to end up with your foot in your mouth."

If you could please point out one instance where I said that? I merely asked the level of experience in which these people with such strong opinions had. If someone tells me vehemently they disagree with a business plan of mine, firstly- I would like to know why, and secondly- if I am smart I would like to know how much previous experience they have for such strong opinions. This is mere logic, my foot has never been close to my mouth.

@Joe: "The high risk is in an opportunity cost. Somebody could spend their time working for free and hoping for a paycheck later on, or they could be spending that same time working for money. How do they eat or pay their rent? Basement studios are a group of friends who get together and eat ramen noodles, not professional business ventures."

You are forgetting some major elements and apparently missing things I have already said several times. Granted my posts are long so it could be easily missed.

This is not people developing a game in a basement. As you are probably aware, collarboration on business design documents is not a full time job, or if it is would be for a very limited full time job. Collaboration can VERY EASILY be worked on with great success for literally just several hours a week, especially if multiple people are collaborating together. Far from the statement you used of "serious danger". I could very easily pour an hour a day in the evenings into a business plan with two other gentleman and have one ready in two weeks or less. Having a previous business plan for Reverie as an outline does help of course. But the point remains the same. NOT a high risk investment in any catergory.

"- By your own admission, you are not highly experienced in game business."

Yes, there are many, many, many people far superior than I in the game business. Apparently I am the only one to admit this however among this group of professionals.

"- You want to start a second studio before your first one has even released a title and proven itself."

I would never begin laying the groundwork for a second studio without being 100% confident in the financial stablility of the first. We have multiple deals we can be doing right now with Reverie, it is simply a matter of which. And as I said already, based on my contacts I have already made- I already have investors lined up to review the business plan for the second.

I think most questions have been answered multiple times at this point. So if anyone who is qualified and interested would like to ask any other questions, please forward them to the email address at the top of this post.

I appreciate all the input guys!

Best Regards,
Micah Hymer

Quote:
If you could please point out one instance where I said that? I merely asked the level of experience in which these people with such strong opinions had. If someone tells me vehemently they disagree with a business plan of mine, firstly- I would like to know why, and secondly- if I am smart I would like to know how much previous experience they have for such strong opinions. This is mere logic, my foot has never been close to my mouth.

Of course you didn't outright say it; my response (and the reponses of others) would have been much less civil in that case. The issue is not that you said it, or even that you meant it (as you claim you did not -- and I believe you). The issue is that the "tone" of your posts (such as it is, being a toneless textual medium) implies it.

When offered advice, turning around and asking others how much experience they have in the subject (you said this to tsloper) or calling their statements uneducated (you said this to frob) suggests a certain hostility, distrust, and/or arrogance.

You are correct in wanting to know how experienced somebody is, of course. You should just be a wee bit more tactful about getting that information, in my experience.

Good luck to you, in any case.

I do understand where you are coming from and I was not meaning to sound arrogant or harshly questioning. But the statement of people like Tom you have to admit was sarcastic and critical when they did not have to be. As such, I felt it was necessary to question their experience in the fields to which they were so adament.

I appreciate the insight and apologise to anyone who felt I was trying to be harsh. I was simply trying to gauge the credentials of the people who were offering me advice.

Best Regards,
Micah Hymer

Sir, you may also find it hard to convince people to listen to what you say because of the low rating you have.

I wish you the best, though. =)

Quote: Original post by tribal_warrior
I appreciate the insight and apologise to anyone who felt I was trying to be harsh. I was simply trying to gauge the credentials of the people who were offering me advice.

Free advice is worth what you paid for it. If you want certified advice from a known and accredited source, I'd advice contacting a lawyer and/or a business consultant. Other advice (including this), should be treated like everything else on the internet; as potentially usefull hearsay.

Good luck with your new enterprise.

Allan