New track uploaded... http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=456656&songID=4019786 Comments always welcome! Thanks, GameGenie

What sample library did you use?

Although you have a good sample library, this song has some problems.

Part 1 - Compositional

It seems you have a good ear for music, but a lack of compositional studies.
You have some harmonic errors right on start of your choir sound (you omit the third, then put the third then remove it again; Poor Bass conduction on the voice).

Part 2 - Production

Some sound have lots of reverb other don't, the choir staccato seems to be out of the rest.

I hope you don't see this post as a bad thing, try to get some compositional studies, you have a great talent for sure, just need to polish some things ;)

If you ever need help just PM me and I can glady help you.

Thanks for your comments Pedro, and yes, you are correct, I have had no compositional training. I guess to the trained ear, that is quite evident. Have any good web-related resources? One drawback about a computer-based orchestra is that it does not give clues regarding errors in orchestration.

Sean (great stuff on your site by the way), I use Epic Horns and parts of the Vienna Symphonic Library. Also, I have Miroslav Choirs. The rest are free samples I have picked up over time.

Sean, what soundcard do you use? Your tracks are very clear.

Thanks,

GameGenie

GameGenie: No hard feelings to Pedro, but the composers who are the most interesting don't always follow the "rules". The 3rd you throw in there works just fine; it makes it more interesting. In fact, it adds a melodic aspect to that little choir intro.

You *could* find a better way to transition into the intrumental part (It's kind of abrupt) but whatever.

I see what Pedro's saying about the mixing (which is actually very good as it is IMHO) but don't worry about the "third/no third - compositional rules" thing. Keep it up.

~Paul

Yes you should NEVER compose by the rules!! I always agree to that line of thoughts.

But you must know all of them so that you can break them in the correct way, and make "Magic".


1 - The first time the choir comes in its perfect, it has no third just root and fifth (although it seems the bass is playing the fifth which is already odd)
2 - then the third comes in sopranos like angels, excelent (although you notice that the bass is making a jump in his voice leading line, but not a problem)
3 - Now here comes the problem, the choir does again the same thing as in number 1, the third goes away, without any explainable reason!! This gives an ideia to a trained ear with compositional skills (which was right after all, as GameGenie admited) that the composer is not controling the harmony, he repeated the #1 Just because it sounded "cool", imo).


I am just making a friendly warning here, because when he sends a demo to a company, that company (if its big enough) will have a professional opinion first. And he may be discarded because of this little things, although he might have pretty cool ideias.

As I said before, I see in him talent, good ideias and good ear. If he ever studies in a music school composition with a maestro or a composer he will surely understand what I am saying, and look at his earlier compositions with "another eyes".

Its like writting a book with spelling errors. The story may be excelent but no one will give you the credit you deserve, instead they will say "learn to spell a word correctly first".

Suprisingly I can garantee that the more you know about composition the further your imagination can take you, if you have the talent.


GameGenie: Unfortunately, I never used web resources to learn. I learned everything in a conservatoire with composers and maestros. Although you might consider taking an online course from berklee:
http://www.berkleemusic.com/school/certificates/
http://www.berkleemusic.com/school/courses/

The string samples kind of reminded me of Zimmers personal library.

Compositionally with samples you can do whatever you want to. Acoustically, some of the things you are doing with this piece, which for the purpose of gaming might work fine, may not sound quite as good. Productionally speaking, missing a 3rd or a 5th may not be the end of the world when using samples, but for the sole purpose of becoming a more knowledgeable (You have to refrain from saying better, because knowing the rules doesn't make you better) composer.

Nice Piece!
Sean Beeson

By the way, I use an Audiophile 24/96.

Also, samples are different because they are not interactive with themselves. Acoustic timbres that do not match in color, can match electronically, and vice versa. One thing that comes to mind are clusters. Acoustically you can hear and feel the amount of tension and space between the half and whole steps, while with samples, (Some argue you can), you cannot get the same effect.

Quote: Original post by Pedro Camacho
Yes you should NEVER compose by the rules!! I always agree to that line of thoughts.

But you must know all of them so that you can break them in the correct way, and make "Magic".


1 - The first time the choir comes in its perfect, it has no third just root and fifth (although it seems the bass is playing the fifth which is already odd)
2 - then the third comes in sopranos like angels, excelent (although you notice that the bass is making a jump in his voice leading line, but not a problem)
3 - Now here comes the problem, the choir does again the same thing as in number 1, the third goes away, without any explainable reason!! This gives an ideia to a trained ear with compositional skills (which was right after all, as GameGenie admited) that the composer is not controling the harmony, he repeated the #1 Just because it sounded "cool", imo).

...

....

Excellent advice. All of it. Ratings ++.

I am really glad I could help you, feel free to post any question and I will try to answer you the best way I can.

Sean, you are right, knowing the rules doesn't make you better!

In fact knowing the rules doesn't even makes you a composer at all!

I usually say that the best thing is to understand what lies beneath the creation of those rules and if they apply to what you want to achieve.

Understanding them and having the talent to know when or not to use them won't make you better as well but can surely make you more rock solid.


For example there is a rule that states: when you want to make a separate multi voice texture (ex: a 4 voice choir like Bach, Beethoven, all the way to the present) you can't make any parallel fifths or octaves between your voices.

At first it may seem dumb, but then a question comes up: "If it is dumb, why ALL great composers followed them, since Bach to Modern composers like Olivier Messian, Piérre de Boulez,...) The answer lies in the phisical properties of the sound itself.

Explaining in a simple way, when you play a sound, if it is not a pure sine wave sound, it is made in fact of "multiple sounds". When you play a C2 on a piano, you are hearing in fact to C2 + C3 + G3 + C4 + E4 + G4 + Bb4 + C5 + etc etc (each next sound becomes more and more difficult to hear). These are called the harmonics.

Because of this you can see that the first harmonics are an octave and a fifth. This is why a fifth or octave interval sound "so consonant".

Try to sing a note to a very untrained singer with low musical skills and tell him to reproduce that note. He will sing either the same note or the fifth. In fact it happens so many times that the very untrained singer will sing the fifth thinking for sure (!!) that he is singing the same note as you.


Returning to the 4 voice choir, when you make a parallel fifth or octave between two of your voices, your 4 voice texture in fact is reduced to a 3 voice texture which damages the composition and is noticeable to a very trained ear. Since a good composer decided to make a 4 voice texture he will stick to that until the end.


Now you tell me: "But in many orchestrations, piano pieces from Claude Debussy, Ravel, Wagner, etc, I hear so many times parallel fifths + octaves, etc. and they are considered great!)

Yes, I know. The fact is that in all those situations the composer isn't treating each instrument/piano note/choir note as a different voice, he is considering them as a whole one "big" voice.

But in the same musical piece you will notice that other sections are purely rigid and always respect this rule.


CONCLUSION: The great composers decide what they want to make with the instruments, if they are sounding as a whole big sound, or reinforcing another instrument sound or if they are treated as a separate voice and STICK WITH IT until another section of the music comes and changes the roles of each instrument.


Curiosity: In the Baroque Period, the minor third was yet considered as a small dissonance to the Western Music Ear (since the only third that was loudly present in the root note was the MAJOR THIRD (see example above C2 - E4)). Because of this the last chord in many minor tone musics composed by Bach and others from that period, finish with a Major Chord, in order to sound more consonant and stable) Even today some composers do that, not because a minor chord would sound bad, but because a major chord in the end sound more powerfull.

Before Bach, in the renaissance, finishing a music with any third would sound terribly bad, hehe funny historical fact.

(I hope I was not too confusing, I don't know english that well)

Good Luck to all :)

Thanks for all that info, Pedro! I for one always enjoy learning what really makes music "tick", and I think it's good for composers to learn the mechanics of music. It sure helped me! No beginner should be scared of theory, because it can only make your sense of music stronger.

By the way, your English is fine. If you lived in America for any real length of time, you'd see that most of us Americans don't even speak our own language that well, much less taking the effort to learn a second or third.

Brian