Thanks for the feedback, all.

New Question: Could you handle losing control of your dynasty for a few generations; and if so, what should happen?

I'm assuming that in playing whatever gameplay I can come up with to shape your progeny (training, education, protecting them from other Indwellings, etc.) you'll fail at least once. Failure (without the ability to quickload, btw) should mean that the offspring is unsuitable as a host.

What should this mean for gameplay? Should this mean that you lose control of the dynasty for a few decades (I think I have a way to smoothly skip time)? I don't think you should just have a suboptimal character to play, because as a rule when you mess up in a game you usually need to be able to recover quickly.

My thoughts were that failing could create a character that's anything from a wimpy milquetoast to a reckless womanizer. Should the fortunes of your dynasty (that is, the work you've put into building up the family) suffer as a result? If so, how drastically?

---

About the fantasy versus science fiction feel:
I'm not sure exactly what the Indwelling artifacts are in terms of story (pieces of some crashed probe or maybe something more grand?) but I've been working an angle involving souls and god-like beings for awhile now.

I don't want to resort to this being something like "you're an alien or robot," though. There's no mythologically resonance there, no punch that calls you to think about who we are and why we're here. For that, I need to tap origin myths. I'd like a theme of "who are we, where are we going, why are we here" to be laced through the whole storyline.

btw, a good combination of reasonably hard SF and "magic" is the Naked God books by Peter F. Hamilton. The dead, in the the form of an "energy virus" come back to life to possess the living, and humans must evolve to stop it. Great mix of hard edge fact, high adventure and spirituality rarely seen in sci-fi.

Quote:

Original post by Iron Chef Carnage It sounds a lot like The Sims 2, actually.

Hmmm... must be my subliminal urge to get back at Will Wright for not taking my phone calls. [grin]

Seriously, one of the envies I've had of the Sims is that they can cover a wider spectrum of subject matter in gameplay than "save the world/save the princess." But at the same time (because I'm a future junkie), I'd like to see the setting be more fantastical. More Star Trek, with room for Adam & Eve family problems and Western-in-space shoot 'em ups.

Quote:

If you can get people to really feel like they're the artifact/player and not like they're the character (That's another thing The Sims did well, and they even used a floating jewel for the player's avatar... And here I thought you were going to be original with this. ;p) then you'll have no real trouble.

D'oh! They use a jewel, too? Well, I'd thought about making you a ring or something, but that was just a little too... "preciousssss" [grin]

Quote:

Of course I'm thinking of this system in a vaccuum. If you'll have a lot of character dialogue options and other role-playing gameplay, then it could erode the balance between engagement and detachment that you seem to value so highly.

There has to be balance, but I DO NOT want to make you into a Sim. Emotionally, Sims are too easy to make into cannon fodder, like an RTS unit. Worse, the gameplay becomes more about managing movement routines and timers than actually assuming some role that has the potential to make you reflect on humanity (this is where stories and myth need to come in).

I actually thought that control would be very much like an RPG with some Sims-like needs meters. The detachment (I'm assuming here) should come from the fact that as an Indwelling moves from host to host, it levels (in ways somewhat unique to the host, hopefully). An Indwelling should probably have a name, as well.

I'm not sure if there should be any host-Indwelling communication, though, or whether you're just that character for awhile..

Quote:

Can you jump out of your host, possess a grunt, get him shot to bits in a rockin' diversionary tactic, then float back to your host and mount up again?

I'd like to reserve this sort of thing for tech levels and powers, if at all feasible. Nanotech viruses and psionics, for example. If I add this sort of thing, it becomes a kind of universal game gimmick. Worse yet, you'll have no care to better the game world unless I make developing humanity in your best interest.

Quote:

Original post by Trapper Zoid My only reservation is that the way you've described the interaction between the Indwelling and the characters is very cold and inpersonal; as if the characters are merely shells for the Indwelling to act through. I know you've put in the difference between the parasitic and the symbiotic Indwellings (sounds a fair bit like Stargate [smile]), but even with the symbiotic Indwellings it still sound a bit "clinical", like you are just going through satisfying desires in order for a greater reward. This might just be in the way you described it though; I'd like the symbiotic characters to be more "human" in the way they play, while the parasitic could be a bit more demonic/monsterous.

Okay, point well taken. So what makes this mechanical / clinical? I think it's a lack of reciprocation, or "mutalness." The host is a dummy/shell because it expresses no wishes/desires, and must always comply.

How about this possibility:

In the very beginning, a host has a will and personality. The will comes from how they were raised (dynasty again), and may not be anything you want, but in time successful integration will lead the host to want what you want (you're the one with a higher purpose).

As an Indwelling, you can spend energy improving yourself or on your host. The energy comes in the form of "mindtones," which are basically attitudes like Sympathy, Contempt, Affinity or Threat. Your most expensive abilities are the ability to manifest forms of healing or suffering in the host, as well as transport them out of (or into) danger.

Another aspect of this could be self-dialog. You and the host occassionally (or often if younger?) communicate, just as the journal in an RPG communicates with the player (but more personal). This gives you an opportunity to support/denigrate/control/nurture your host. A young host, for instance, might ask, "are you with me?" before going into danger (seeking reassurance); or (on failing something important) might say, "I'm nothing but a loser!" giving you a chance to shape them by responding.

The more successful you are in integrating with your host, the more the host naturally wants to surrender control to you. If you mistreat a host, on the other hand, he/she could fight you, block you out (limiting your growth) or make choices that are harmful to both of you (maybe drink themselves into a stupor). As a parasite, you could end up with a deranged host you've failed to break that occassionally suffers paralyzing status effects while screaming in public for you to get out of his head.

I'm also thinking there might be some sort of time on/time off cycle: The host does things while you sleep/regenerate, and this is a time when you lose complete control of them. Their behavior will reflect their personality, which you should be helping to shape. As you integrate, the time off time gets shorter and shorter until it disappears. This symbolizes the ultimate symbiosis, that there is no difference between your host and you.

Heh, for some reason I got the image of the player being a magic sword telling the "hero" to go slay the evil DemonKing.

Anyway, I'm not sure about the player suddenly losing control of their dynasty and skipping generations.

What if, when the host becomes unsuitable for the player, then the player can switch over to a new host and try to take back what is "theirs"?


For example, Joe Shmo McDownTrodden who wishes for great power finds "The Ancient Scepter of Wisdom" (played by the player, of course). The Scepter offers to fulfill Joes request in return for obedience. Joe takes the offer and under the players guidance starts building an empire.

However, Joe gets a bit selfish, eventually stops doing what the player asks and becomes an "unsuitable host". The player can then have the option of immediatly leaving Joe for a new host (possibly the leader of a rival clan or one of Joe's underlings) or waiting it out until Joe has an heir that they can contact and hopefully make a deal with.

If they choose a new host (either by teleporting or manipulating events to where the scepter is placed into the hands of their new host) they don't have risk what time may do to their work, but they will have to work to regain control of what their previous host made.


Heh, suppose the Scepter (or whatever you make it) is actually an advanced AI built into a crystal. They have the power to scan objects and human minds at a distance, communicate telepathically on different levels (speak normally to the host or cloud the judgement of his opponents). And perhaps teleport or discharge energy attacks (which can be enhanced by a cooperative host).

So, basically the player would "see all" and advise the Host in order to keep the host happy and meanwhile try slipping in things that benefit themselves. If the host gets too demanding they could keep them in line by threatening to leave and help someone else.

Hmmm... though if they are an AI, would it be possible for them to have a robotic body built that could control instead of having to deal with "insolent mortals".

Quote:

Original post by The Shadow Nose What if, when the host becomes unsuitable for the player, then the player can switch over to a new host and try to take back what is "theirs"?

So you'd have to go up against the very same character you'd equipped? That'd be really nasty! [lol]

This also implies that that NPC should have access to your secret stashes, codes and any abilities you've imparted. So you'd need ample warning that a host is going sour, and ways to correct this before it happens. Otherwise, you could face an uber-NPC that drastically outmatches you.

I'd think it would also mean that you better not eliminate all of your enemies, because you might need them!

Quote:

Heh, suppose the Scepter (or whatever you make it) is actually an advanced AI built into a crystal. They have the power to scan objects and human minds at a distance, communicate telepathically on different levels (speak normally to the host or cloud the judgement of his opponents). And perhaps teleport or discharge energy attacks (which can be enhanced by a cooperative host).

This could work. I'm not sure what explanation to use, but it definitely should be a VERY advanced technology.

Quote:

So, basically the player would "see all" and advise the Host in order to keep the host happy and meanwhile try slipping in things that benefit themselves. If the host gets too demanding they could keep them in line by threatening to leave and help someone else.

Yes, I could see some sort of negotiation that could almost always happen because you're joined with the NPC.

Quote:

Hmmm... though if they are an AI, would it be possible for them to have a robotic body built that could control instead of having to deal with "insolent mortals".

Right, that's a problem. In hard science fiction there are already a ton of reasons for human beings to be obsolete. But that's not very heroic for storytelling.

Quote:

Original post by Wavinator Quote: Original post by The Shadow Nose What if, when the host becomes unsuitable for the player, then the player can switch over to a new host and try to take back what is "theirs"? So you'd have to go up against the very same character you'd equipped? That'd be really nasty! [lol] This also implies that that NPC should have access to your secret stashes, codes and any abilities you've imparted. So you'd need ample warning that a host is going sour, and ways to correct this before it happens. Otherwise, you could face an uber-NPC that drastically outmatches you. I'd think it would also mean that you better not eliminate all of your enemies, because you might need them!

I really like that idea. You would have more consequences to face as the result of your actions. Perfect for an RPG.


I believe a good way for the player to "bond" more with the host is to limit the number of hosts an Indwelling can inhabit. It would make the player put more value on a host by not allowing the host to be just an expendable shell.

What if instead of some external artifact you are in fact an internal one? Matrix style head jack (except portable and internal) that only royalty is allowed. You acrue knowledge of all past hosts and can actually release nanomachines to enhance your host's physical body as well. You can get "powerups" in the form of experience and knowledge where the powerups are actually nanomachine upgrades which means you can carry that over to future hosts when the present one wears out. Certain powerups shorten longevity or lengthen it depending on the type of character you are.

You integrate with the host and have your own mind, but you were designed for use in a human vessel as you are partially biological. You are unique, developed from a lost technology and your history is hazy. There is a religion following your existance in which it is considered a great honour to accept you into their body. There is only one machine for doing the extraction and the implant which was left along with you to the first of your dynasty. The origins of this machine can be whatever you want, but one option is of course an alien race which introduced it to the humans, their motivation could be sinister or benevolant depending on what kind of character you play out (sort of affecting the storyline including your origin.) Your hosts are either slaves who have been bred for your dark intentions, or they are free-spirited individuals you simply look after. Really open ended that way.

If your host is failing you, there may be an option for complete posession in which you fry the host's brain and take control of their motor functions so that you can directly go out and find a better host. When you find one you could either kidnap them against their will or talk them into coming with you for the transplant. The transplant would leave your original host dead only if you fry their brain to find a better host, otherwise you are extracted harmlessly though they lose all future benefits they maintain knowledge and strength you gave them until their body and mind die naturally.

It's important that this type of machine and you yourself are unique in the world and that the technology behind you is non-duplicatable so you'll have to work in a non-cheesy storyline into that.

I really think you've got a neat idea going, good luck. Hope you like my suggestions. If you do implement something with this you don't need to give me credit for antyhing at all, but if you want to my name is Michael Hamilton and my website is http://www.mutedvision.net

Quote:

Original post by RobotechII I really like that idea. You would have more consequences to face as the result of your actions. Perfect for an RPG.

Since you'd have to worry about the consequences of your actions, how upfront do you think the game should be about what you are? That is, do you think (for story purposes) that this aspect can be kept secret for a time, or do you think that it makes more sense for me to tell you right away "there are hosts in the world; you transfer from them this way; you integrate with/possess them this way; etc. etc. etc."

Quote:

I believe a good way for the player to "bond" more with the host is to limit the number of hosts an Indwelling can inhabit. It would make the player put more value on a host by not allowing the host to be just an expendable shell.

Yes, I like this idea. Perhaps the host's temperament / personality and conditioning / training could be essential factors here? Maybe the personality guides the direction you'll be able to level up, and their training / mental discipline guide how far you'll be able to go.

Or were you thinking of making this much more fixed, like "there are only N hosts in the world?"

Quote:

Original post by M2tM What if instead of some external artifact you are in fact an internal one?

This would really work except for the fact that whatever you are needs to survive various tech level crashes. What I'd like to be able to do is to present to you a game world so fluid that the tech level and game's nations can rise and fall. So you need to be able to do the whole host / body switch and dynasty / child-raising elements with or without a technology whose location or condition could (even by story implication) be at risk.

Quote:

You can get "powerups" in the form of experience and knowledge where the powerups are actually nanomachine upgrades which means you can carry that over to future hosts when the present one wears out. Certain powerups shorten longevity or lengthen it depending on the type of character you are.

I like this idea, although nanomachines are WAAAAY too primitive. [grin] I see these guys as being at the quantum level of tech.

Quote:

If your host is failing you, there may be an option for complete posession in which you fry the host's brain and take control of their motor functions so that you can directly go out and find a better host. When you find one you could either kidnap them against their will or talk them into coming with you for the transplant. The transplant would leave your original host dead only if you fry their brain to find a better host, otherwise you are extracted harmlessly though they lose all future benefits they maintain knowledge and strength you gave them until their body and mind die naturally.

I can see a lot of different possibilities with this idea in terms of story. Can you think of any type of gameplay you'd want to have before you actually have to hijack the host? Should you have to negotiate with them to get them to do things they're afraid to do, or don't like?

Quote:

It's important that this type of machine and you yourself are unique in the world and that the technology behind you is non-duplicatable so you'll have to work in a non-cheesy storyline into that.

Right, I've been trying to go with a fallen gods angle.

[qutoe]
Hope you like my suggestions. If you do implement something with this you don't need to give me credit for antyhing at all, but if you want to my name is Michael Hamilton and my website is http://www.mutedvision.net

Thanks, most appreciated!!! [smile]

Quote:

Original post by Wavinator Quote: Original post by RobotechII I really like that idea. You would have more consequences to face as the result of your actions. Perfect for an RPG. Since you'd have to worry about the consequences of your actions, how upfront do you think the game should be about what you are? That is, do you think (for story purposes) that this aspect can be kept secret for a time, or do you think that it makes more sense for me to tell you right away "there are hosts in the world; you transfer from them this way; you integrate with/possess them this way; etc. etc. etc."

I think it might be an interesting surprise for a player to realize what they are for the first time when the first host died.

Quote:

Original post by Wavinator Quote: Original post by RobotechII I believe a good way for the player to "bond" more with the host is to limit the number of hosts an Indwelling can inhabit. It would make the player put more value on a host by not allowing the host to be just an expendable shell. Yes, I like this idea. Perhaps the host's temperament / personality and conditioning / training could be essential factors here? Maybe the personality guides the direction you'll be able to level up, and their training / mental discipline guide how far you'll be able to go. Or were you thinking of making this much more fixed, like "there are only N hosts in the world?"

I was thinking along the lines of after each host discarded the Indwelling "ages." And after so many hosts the Indwelling has a possibility of permanent death. Maybe on the last couple of transfers inform the player that the Indwelling had great difficulty moving to a new host.

Although I like the idea about being able to level more/easier if the host you inhabit is already more aligned with the Indwellings personality. I believe that the player would become more attached to these more attuned hosts since it would be easier to level.