Quote:Original post by Xai
Just wanted to chime in Daniel. While I agree with some of your points ... I have to say that I have never met a single person (in person) who would agree with your idea that improving the AI would hurt the game ... |
I'm actually pretty normal when it comes to fixing AI. There are very few Broodwar players that I have met that want to change it (except for two exceptions, which will be mentioned shortly).
Quote:| Now people will argue about what is an improvement. But the main thing I mean is the removal of AI reactions that consistently cause players to go "What the Fuck!?!@#$" and "Why can't this stupid AI do W@#$%@$ like it does in that other game ..." |
Chances are that the "other game" flopped. When you make the player play the game rather than the AI play it for you, it does get harder to make your troops do what they want, but it also makes it much more competitive. Imagine a FPS with autoaiming. Sure, it's doing what you want it to do (aim at your opponent), but now every player is just about as good as every other player, and it becomes very difficult to actually improve.
Now, about those two exceptions:
Scarab AI. Without going into too much detail, it's random. Sometimes, it will do exactly as you say, other times, it won't do anything at all. That's a big no-no. As long as it's predictable, its ok, but don't make something that can cause a player to randomly lose.
Dragoon AI. They sometimes freeze up for no reason, unable to shoot or move. This one isn't as bad because you have
some control over it (you can spam Hold Position which gets them unstuck, but it's still something that randomly happens that can turn the tides in a battle.
Quote:| For example, many games used to not have proper "agresive" "defensive" "hold posision" and "hold fire" choices for your troops ... and NONE currently do those activities perfectly. A perfect UI/AI would be one in which each player could correctly command their troops to do what they "want" them to do. |
No, that would be a nightmare! :P
Like I said, you want players to to play the game. Too much hand-holding and the game becomes bland and easy.
Quote:| The reason we complain about RTS AI exploits is because they are 100% artifical frustration causers. The fact that no human, not even experts, can command their troops as well as if they we're a trained squad yelling verbal orders is 1 piece of evidence. The fact that the average, non expert players constantly find themselves frustrated because the experts can defeat them via means they do not think of as the "game" (not being able to make your unit stop acting stupid is NOT what MOST people enjoy about RTS games). |
The reason that so many people stick with Broodwar is because they see how well the proffesionals control their troops (it doesn't even make sense how good they are), and they constantly strive to improve. Broodwar is a game where a better player will beat a worse one 9 out of 10 games, so there is a reason to always improve (even at the professional level players are still getting better, which is a constant source of amazement).
Quote:| Nearly all of my college RTS playing friends love/loved Starcraft. Nearly every one of us dislikes BroodWars, because it opens up even more avenues that play on the AI / control problems of the game (medics for the humans act AUTOMATICALLY - while other abilities that would kill them and the troops they augment don't - which is very overpowering for the average player) |
I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. It's too hard to beat it? It is much easier to control Lurker/Zergling or Muta/Zergling than it is to control Marine/Medic. One mistake with "M&M" and you have lost your entire army, which can't be said about Lurkerling or Mutaling.
It's too hard to control? Yes, it's very difficult to control it effectively, though it's one of those things that -- once you get very good at it -- allows you to do some very creative things with them (dodging lurker spines, constantly moving your front line back so Zerglings can't get many hits in, etc.).
Quote:| (clocked units and lurkers are the newbie killer, and they don't enjoy how they HAVE to go down the EXACT right path of defense to survive for 6 minutes against a moderately good player). |
The players that do quit Broodwar are almost always people who get frustrated early on because they lose every game. You have to realize that's the nature of a truely skill-based game. Once you play and improve (and you will improve), you realize that those things really aren't so hard to beat.
Quote:Starcraft actually has more interesting gameplay when played by 2 bad players than good players .. because bad players are THINKING up things to try, and suceeding or failing and REACTING to them ...
Good players are executing known patterns and plans against likely enemy actions ... |
When I watch to bad players, there are so many moments where I go, "No! You clearly shouldn't have done that!".
Games from good players are much more entertaining to watch, because they have better unit control, and can make much larger numbers of units (bigger, more skilled battles).
Good players come in two varieties:
First, there is the "memorize the most effective counters and use them" type of player. Their play is of course effective; they generally use the most proven strategies and counters, and there isn't a problem with making the smartest choice. Their games aren't always the same, however, because the outcome of every battle is so important, and one player might control his troops more effectively in a given battle, which will completely change the game.
The other type of player generally tries unusual and creative strategies in the hopes of flustering their opponent, who probably doesn't know how to beat it effectively. These players are generally hit-and-miss: if their opponent can figure out how to beat their strategy in time, they will probably lose unless they can safely transition to a more effective strategy. Otherwise, they win.
Both players are fun to watch in my opinion.
Quote:| Wasn't it true that your most enjoyable starcraft moments are likely the ones where something new / cool was tried against you? And better still, when you struggled your ass off to think up a response before it was too late? Notice I say "first time" and "think up" ... not, click click, drag, click click. |
My favorite games are games that I eitther play a very solid game all the way through, or games where I try some insane strategy and end up winning.
Both are very fun (you can't tell me that demolishing a standard Terran slow-push with Zealot/Dragoon isn't fun! :P).
