I certainly prefer the second option, but with the variety the first option brings (ie: so many different types of thieves that people will willingly choose different paths). However, as far as guilds go, I already had a different idea entirely for how they should work. Although nobody replied, people were at least reading it, I hope. Contained here until knocked off.

In short, I don't think a guild's function should be just to gather people and complete missions or raid other guilds. There should be a couple levels at work, all working together, all waiting for the right moment to step into the light.

Well, with an organization they generally look for Pros and Cons

Pros: What can the person bring to the organization, and

Cons: If they are likey to cause trouble

So the Pros part would mainly bee what stats and skills the person has, in a thiving guild they would have several diferent areas like Pickpockets, thugs, stratagy, medics or maintining the technology.

The Cons would consist of a lack of skill or if somebody is likely to be disloyal. So a thives guild probably wouldn't want weakling newbies (well, they might get the really low-level jobs but they wouldn'y want too many) and they would be suspicious of characters who are either incurably honest or insanely bloodthirsty.

Though the people who would apply for a job at a thieves guild would be desperate for money, chaotic, greedy or some other combiantion of attibutes


So, I suppose you could provide a list of applicants and most of them will fit into general groups. Like the standard mix of medium strength thieves who can pick pockets and more advanced ones that can rob stores. But every once in a while you get some special applicants like a crooked medic who can patch up wounded crooks, a hacker who can steal data or an escaped expermental cyborg that eats the nano-circuits from machines and is on the run from the authorities.


Basically, I think that a character should be allowed to take on any class they want, if it looks like the guild can use them then they get hired. Also, it would be nice if characters get effected by what guild they join. So thieves get stat boosts and can learn more advanced skills by joining a thives guild while somebody like a cleric might get tainted and therefor be unable to learn the higher level skills of his class, though he might learn some theiving skills being in the theives guild.

The thieves guild is poor example as the dictionary states that a guild is an organization of people who do the same job or have the same interests. This implies a thieves guild should consist of thieves.

A faction on the other hand is defined as 'A usually contentious or self-seeking group within a larger group, party, government'. A faction has a well defined goal which is shared by all its members. If you were a leader of a faction you would recruit new based on them being 'like-minded' to yourself, not just on theres skill. If you just wanted a particular persons skill for a particular job, then you would hire a mercenary.

I vote for option 2, by the way. I just feel a character(NPC) should also have goals, wants, religious beliefs, policial outlook as well as class/skills when comes to hiring.

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Original post by Wavinator Specifically, what I'm asking is whether or not the faction should be formalized. If you have formal limits, it suggests a system where there are characters of a certain class that will join and modify a certain group. It's potentially easier to understand because it's structured. For example: Only thieves join thieves guilds, and you wouldn't find a thief guild which had as its member a fallen paladin or disgraced corporate spy. OTOH, the other system would be based on personality limits (who can work together). You could have a rag-tag band of "chaotic good" smugglers made up of a couple of gunners, a harlot, a priest, and a fugitive doctor and his psychic sister (*ahem* apologies to Firefly fans[smile])

Both have some structure, just the parameters that link them are different. In the first, the parameter is class. In the second, the parameter is 'alignment' or something similar.

Of course, this doesn't have to be formalized, but you can still provide structure. All guilds and factions are going to have a mission statement of some description, and by its nature that mission statement is going to define who is likely to become a member, and also provides some idea of what that guild is all about.

Of course, this will be rather tricky to implement in terms of determining NPC interest in a PC's guild...

I guess for the purpose of your questions i need to ask the following.

What is the purpose of your game? Is it an MMO? Single player? Multiplayer?

Is the game a strategy game?

What do you want to actually use the factions for? How will they be utilized.

If you can clarify those questions it may help provide a better answer to you.

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Original post by Wavinator Thanks for the great replies, but some of the responses make me think I didn't ask the original question quite right. If you were assembling a thieves guild of NPCs, what level of complexity would you want: 1) Only thieves will join (hence when searching you only look in thief haunts). 2) Anyone can join if YOU decide you want their skills (hence the search space is wide open, you could meet a potential member anywhere) Under option 1, NPC thieves simply increase the effectiveness of your faction and possibly add specializations (an opportunity to raid a secure warehouse, or knowledge which aids swifter movement through sewers, for example). Under option 2, you build the faction to your personal needs, meaning it's only a thieves guild if you hire only thieves. You could hire thugs, chemists, hackers, whatever, in your "thieves guild," using them as support, or in a primary role (this is more the "rag tag band" kind of guild) The former option is much more structured and you theoretically know where to look. The latter is more creative, and you can build the NPC guild to fit the role you want to take on in the game world.

Is the guild/faction/whatever meant to be a resource for a PC to draw upon? Or is it meant to be a combination of PCs/NPCs?

If it is a resource #1 is fine, since guilds really are meant to be single profession groups. If it is #2, there is no reason I can think of that you can limit players in the social arena that they would tolerate. They would just find a way around it.

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Original post by KingRuss Although nobody replied, people were at least reading it, I hope. Contained here until knocked off.

Don't you hate it when that happens?! (FWIW, I at least took a look at it, but didn't reply because I'm not experienced enough with MMOs).

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In short, I don't think a guild's function should be just to gather people and complete missions or raid other guilds. There should be a couple levels at work, all working together, all waiting for the right moment to step into the light.

What strikes me about this (and it factors into my lack of MMO experience) is that I guess players already have much of what they want in MMO guilds. Would that be correct to assume?

My inexperience may be leading me to try to duplicate what MMOs already do well for a fraction of the cost (due to human "AI").

I see the interesting parts of leading a guild of NPCs as:

• Recruiting / persuading talent, possibly doing missions in order to win someone over to your side
  
• Dealing with intrigue, double-dealing, backstabbing and political manuevering, particularly involving enemy factions and governments (spies, traitors, undercover cops, etc.)
  
• Enhancing equipment and bases to build influence
  
• Degrading equipment and bases of enemy factions to soften their influence
  

Do MMOs already do all of this? If so, there's probably no point for a single-player RPG to do so. The only difference, I guess, would be that every player of a single-player RPG would be entitled to winning leadership, whereas only the most socially popular on an MMO would.

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Original post by The Shadow Nose So, I suppose you could provide a list of applicants and most of them will fit into general groups. Like the standard mix of medium strength thieves who can pick pockets and more advanced ones that can rob stores. But every once in a while you get some special applicants like a crooked medic who can patch up wounded crooks, a hacker who can steal data or an escaped expermental cyborg that eats the nano-circuits from machines and is on the run from the authorities.

Just so that I'm clear, what does this provide you? Does it allow you to more easily select people so that you could potentially get on with other parts of the game? Because I imagine that if the NPCs were somewhat "classless" then you'd have to spend more time mentally factoring in their value. You'd have to look at skills and say, "Oh, this guy says he's a thief but he's really more geared to being a hacker."

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Also, it would be nice if characters get effected by what guild they join. So thieves get stat boosts and can learn more advanced skills by joining a thives guild while somebody like a cleric might get tainted and therefor be unable to learn the higher level skills of his class, though he might learn some theiving skills being in the theives guild.

What about limits and fx being more skill and social status based? So that they don't automatically get the bonus / effect just by walking into the door, but either through training or having their social status improve/degrade by constantly being seen consorting with the guild. (This last opens the possibility for secret alliances, say between a nefarious priestess pretending to lead a community and the gang of drug dealers she's in alliance with).

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Original post by Sandman Of course, this doesn't have to be formalized, but you can still provide structure. All guilds and factions are going to have a mission statement of some description, and by its nature that mission statement is going to define who is likely to become a member, and also provides some idea of what that guild is all about. Of course, this will be rather tricky to implement in terms of determining NPC interest in a PC's guild...

I think the really tricky part is going to be in how the player declares to the world "this is my faction and this is what we stand for."

I can see randomly generating NPCs that seek the player out based on this declaration, but I'm not quite yet clear on how the player makes the declaration.

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Original post by robert4818 What is the purpose of your game?

First, it's to survive in a world that experiences shifting events (economically, socially and/or defensively). Secondly, it's to thrive by building up your character and faction. Thirdly, you can optionally follow the story and find out who's pulling the strings and creating so much chaos.

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Is it an MMO?

[evil] On a shoestring indie budget? Afraid not, not until Sony is beating down my door!

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Single player? Multiplayer?

SP and multiplayer co-op.

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Is the game a strategy game?

It's an open ended game with RPG and strategy elements, but it would be wrong to say the focus is on strategy. More on combat, stealth, trade and NPC interaction.

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What do you want to actually use the factions for? How will they be utilized.

They're backup to whatever your goals are. So if you're fighting or sneaking, they might be a merc or spy squad covering your backside; if you're trading, they're watching properties for you and generating bonus missions you can go on to build your business. For a crook, they'd be your muscle and workers; for a starship captain, your crew; for a cult, your loyal devotees.

In general, as you improve them you use them to have a stronger and stronger impact on world events. As a cult leader, you might instigate a holy war, for instance; or as a merc leader you might get a critical opportunity to change world events by assassinating or rescuing a leader. Because the whole game turns on survival of world events, you'll want to have some say over how the chips fall, so to speak.