Wavinator - big fan or your posts but I have to disagree with you on your point that implies that powergamers want longer games. Well, not exactly disagree I guess as I do want a long involved campaign sometimes, but I don't want it to be needlessly extended by bad design.

I'm a huge powergamer myself, but I have to say those last turns in Civ drive me batty. One of my pet peeves are civilizations that move a hundred units around during the AI stage without advancing them to any intelligent position and often even returning them to where they were previously located. To some degree, this is the AI "patrolling", but if they'd just stack their freaking units so that only ONE does the patrol thing instead of having to see 8 to 50 of them do the patrol thing it would make a LOT more sense. Additionally, the AI should be smart enough that it knows when satellites have been unlocked and patrolling is no longer a coherent strategy.

I think you are probably suggesting that long games are good, but one of my pet peeves in Civ 3 is the terribly long turns when you open up the world map. This is just weak coding and could easily be avoided by the AI changes I've suggested.

Make it involved and take a variable time to complete by offering various game map sizes and various numbers of opponents, but don't put in weak AI that moves about endlessly for no purpose. :) There are a lot of ways to allow players to configure this so that you can appeal to a broad array of player types.

Wow!! Thanks for all the feedback, but I guess it's easy when you're just passing on your opinion, eh? :-D

dink- I totally agree with you. I tend to play HUGE maps with LOTS of civilizations because let's face it, I want EVERYONE to bow to me. So those last few turns when everyone is moving for no reason I tended to go take a nap, that or eat my keyboard, whichever was most convient at the time. Now I have a gig of RAM so it's not too bad but still...Sheesh!

That is an excellent idea about having an option so they don't patrol because of satelite technology being discovered. However, since I plan on making a space 4X the enttire map will never be visible. But instead of ships moving every turn I think I'm going to have the AI move scout ships to areas where they can't see and have a set of scout ships out to serve as their eyes instead of moving out every single ship every single turn and just wasting time for no reason. Or can anyone think of a better approach to htat problem?

Wavinator-

I apologize for making it soudn like I was going to SET a time limit. I meant more along the lines of current 4X games, there is not set time limit but on average it takes "so long" to complete a certian size galaxy on average. And of course I'd give the option to start the tech tree before space travel. What greater feeling is there than the first time you reach space? I remember one web based game where you actually had to discover rocket tech, then satelite tech, then try to build a ship capable of going to your moon, then closest planet, then within your system, then throughout the galaxy. And I can't tell you how proud I was when that rocket took off. I felt like I had really accomplished something. (I really did. There was like fifteen techs to get to rockets. Heh)

Final note- JOMT will kill all time available for studying for finals.

Whew... Painfully long post. I think I got more to say but I gotta go work.

How long are turns in the games you guys play? I get impatient playing Advance Wars, with its 2-minute turns. [grin]

In Broodwar, while you may not get JOMT, you do get Just One More Game all the time.

I might spend one minute on a turn but it isn't unheard of for me to sit there thirty minutes on one turn..sometimes the micromanage demon takes me over.....

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Original post by Daniel Miller How long are turns in the games you guys play? I get impatient playing Advance Wars, with its 2-minute turns. [grin]

It really depends on how far into the game I am. If I am near the end of a game it isn't unheard of for me to have to spend upwards of 15 - 20 minutes on a turn.

Quote:

Original post by Charles256 I might spend one minute on a turn but it isn't unheard of for me to sit there thirty minutes on one turn..sometimes the micromanage demon takes me over.....

Just a rumor that I heard, seeing as I never got to really play MOO 3 for very long, but I heard that Micromanagement was the downfall of many a player. I was told that MOO 3 is more of a macromanagement game.

--Ter'Lenth

MOO 3 has TOO MUCH micromanagement and if you automate it ( the little that you can) you might just screw yourself. It was too much micro management, I couldn't handle it to be honest wiht you. on turn 500 I promptly walked outside and beat myself. Not really but it was frustrating. Hence why 4X games need GREAT AI for those times you don't want to micro manage everything under the sun.

What's micro-management in a TBS?

Quote:

Original Post by Danny Miller Insert any post here Edit: Latest post excluded.

Ok.. we get the idea. You like RTS and you don't like TBS. Really, we get it. However, this thread was specifically asking about TBS games.


<ontopic>
The length of the turn really depends on three factors.
1. The skill of the player.
2. The size of the universe.
3. The amount of management needed.

1. Player skill- unfortunately, you can't do anything about this. Slow people will take longer. You can try to speed them up, but usually this will make them feel rushed and therefore enjoy your game less.
You can work with the AI speed and intelligence, but it is not nessecary to show their movement at all.

2. Size- It is pretty easy to vary this in a setting so this is used as a way to fit the player speed to what they enjoy.

3. Management- Your one area left to work with. Fortunately, it is big and there is lots you can do or not do. My best advice here is play some games you like and note what you like. If you like your game, others will like it too. Program a game for yourself, not others.

I, for one, liked the ability in Stars!2 to script actions for your repetitive resource missions. In Master of Magic, a game which I loved and still do, I liked working with the cities initially when I could keep them straight, but after 20 or so, they started to get jumbled together. It would have been nice to queue up several items.
MOO3 had so many problems that the game was worthless. My biggest issue was the spy management. It would have been nice to be able to eliminate that aspect from the game. That, and the shipbuilding AI was horrid.

I have had many cases of JOMT. It is difficult to get real stuff done. Oh well.

Coul you at least answer the question? :P

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Original post by Daniel Miller Coul you at least answer the question? :P

Micro-management in a TBS usually involves some mix of the following:

individual unit movement
research decisions(Do i go for the black hole generator of laser level 2?)
build options
diplomacy
resource management
design options
caffine management
manual consultation
chart consultation
market tracking
scrapping a ridiculous army of empty troop ships the the stupid AI built (thanks MOO3)

I am sure I missed a few