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Original post by nefthy Quote: Original post by Sandman I'd disagree. Resource shortage will almost always lose you the battle if you dig in, in any half decent RTS. The only exceptions are maps in which you have virtually limitless resources, which are generally considered cheesy maps anyway. My point was that resource shortage has become somewhat rare these days. I can remember getting stuck more than once in Warcraft I becouse I missused resources. I can't recall that about anothere RTS game.

Never played Starcraft, have you?

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Original post by Sandman People turtle for one (or both) of two reasons in my opinion: 1) They're not very good players, and in order to cope with their lack of skill at directing their forces on the offensive, they take a defensive stance because it's easier to micromanage. 2) They like building stuff, developing their towns, and mucking about using the game as a sandbox.

\o/ I'll sign under both, but just want to add to 1) this is often caused by horrible unit management system. More often than not i'll be pretty much forced to just gather a huge bunch of mixed units and play whack-a-mole all over the map, simply because trying to direct anything in more sensible and efficient manner turns into "no, no, no you idiot i wanted you to attack _this_ not _that_ ... and you! where the hell you think you *are* going while am not looking?" type of pixel-hunting. >.<;

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Original post by tolaris \o/ I'll sign under both, but just want to add to 1) this is often caused by horrible unit management system. More often than not i'll be pretty much forced to just gather a huge bunch of mixed units and play whack-a-mole all over the map, simply because trying to direct anything in more sensible and efficient manner turns into "no, no, no you idiot i wanted you to attack _this_ not _that_ ... and you! where the hell you think you *are* going while am not looking?" type of pixel-hunting. >.<;

Heh, I won't disagree. Controlling individual units on that level is horribly inefficient.

You can improve with practice, if you have the time and patience. It would be nice to develop some less micro intensive way of controlling armies though, so that the emphasis is onto cunning rather than how much clicking practice you've had. I do think that micromanagement is the main factor in the 'newbie' tendency toward turtling.

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Original post by Sandman Heh, I won't disagree. Controlling individual units on that level is horribly inefficient.

Aye, and even worse part is the target assignment :/ it doesn't really matter if i can group the units by type so i have say, fighters under one key, and light tanks under another, and my soldier squads divided into nice groups as well... when the enemy rolls out their own zerg rush, and am expected to magically figure out which of the messed bunch of pixels is that one particular unit type that my tanks will do the best against, and then click on it... and which is the other guy's unit i definitely *shouldn't* try to kill with my grunt soldiers, because it will eat them for breakfast, and thus *not* click on it. (i think Homeworld 2 tried to resolve this by having 'intelligent' units which would select optimal enemy for themselves out of bunch of targets you'd order them to attack...)

You can't just throw out micro; it's best to have a balance between micro and macro.

For example, in Starcraft, there are players entered the pro scene because of their ingenious micro tricks (it isn't random clicking any more than playing a FPS is), yet there are others who did it by their excellent resource management/macro (by that I mean they could build much larger armies off of the same amount of resources).

You can choose either style of play and become good. What isn't good is removing unit control, because the only RTS that ever get very popular have some sort of emphasis on it.

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Original post by tolaris Quote: Original post by Sandman Heh, I won't disagree. Controlling individual units on that level is horribly inefficient. Aye, and even worse part is the target assignment :/ it doesn't really matter if i can group the units by type so i have say, fighters under one key, and light tanks under another, and my soldier squads divided into nice groups as well... when the enemy rolls out their own zerg rush, and am expected to magically figure out which of the messed bunch of pixels is that one particular unit type that my tanks will do the best against, and then click on it... and which is the other guy's unit i definitely *shouldn't* try to kill with my grunt soldiers, because it will eat them for breakfast, and thus *not* click on it. (i think Homeworld 2 tried to resolve this by having 'intelligent' units which would select optimal enemy for themselves out of bunch of targets you'd order them to attack...)

It really isn't that hard if you give it some practice...

I think game speed has a lot to do with it. Every StarCraft player plays on "fastest" speed all the time, because that's how the pros do it. Unfortunately, at that speed it takes some serious mouse ninjutsu to keep up with a fight. If people played at "normal" speed, I think micro would be easier and more prevalent. On fastest it's just a race to see who can click with the most precision.

Slower, more methodical games will produce slower, more methodical play. I turtle because I know I can't compete with the better micro players in open combat. I need static defenses to slow them down and distract their invading force. It usually just delays my defeat, but every minute I survive is a little victory for me.

I think the "start from scratch" format of multiplayer RTS games is partially at fault, as well. StarCraft can be divided into build, rush and pump phases, and by then the game is usually decided. If you had to assign resources based on some other standard than how fast you can build them, it might be more worthwhile.

If you don't play on Fastest setting then it is painfully slow, and is just tedious to play. :P

Could you explain your last paragraph?

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Original post by Daniel Miller It really isn't that hard if you give it some practice...

A case of personal skills, or lack thereof ^^

Personally, i find it too frustrating am fighting with the *interface* rather than the opponent... to give it enough practice, unless the game really has something to it that can offset that.

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Original post by Daniel Miller For example, in Starcraft, there are players entered the pro scene because of their ingenious micro tricks (it isn't random clicking any more than playing a FPS is), yet there are others who did it by their excellent resource management/macro (by that I mean they could build much larger armies off of the same amount of resources).

Many of these tricks are exploitative of the control system. Like the unstoppable nuke trick, where you hover a barracks over the ghost so your opponent can't target him specifically.

Ingenious, yes, but it takes you outside the realm of military tactics and strategy and into exploiting the limitations of the interface.

And no one is saying it's random clicking. No one is saying there's no strategy at all. What people are saying is that they feel that the degree of micromanagement involved places a bar on their ability to actually accomplish any kind of remotely strategic manouvers, and spoils the game for those who don't have the time and patience to practice their mouse clicking skills so intensively.