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"Maybe this world is another planet''s hell." -Aldous Huxley

That is it! I will ignore any cream cheese remarks from now on. Finito!

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

I think that NPCS ARE PEOPLE TOO and TOTAL FREEDOM go in the same category. If you can do anything you want, NPCs can do anything they want. An NPC you made as a farmer could, after meeting our heroic player, be inspired to be like you and quit farming. The only problem is, the NPC would have to DECIDE: NO SCRIPTING ALLOWED. (I have a theoretical solution, but I cant put it in english well. Its in my head only until I get around to putting it in code. dwarf, remember INSTINCT> PERSONALITY> MEMORY> LOGIC??)

btw, Now I''m hungry. Got any pictures of bagels and cream cheese?

INSTINCT>PERSONALITY>MEMORY>LOGIC seems to have slipped to the back of my mind.

Perhaps a bit of reclarification would be in order...

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

Maybe we should pass through the believable NPC behavior before going to Free NPC having their own mind.
(Which by the way is under heavy work by many very wise people.)

One step after the other.
We don''t want to have a game that goes out of control, at least not me.

-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-

Question though.

I understand the giving everyone it''s own life, thought about it myself, but then I was thinking while I was reading your message.

How many people do you talk to while you are walking down the street? If you were a CIA agent sent to save/destroy the world, would you be talking to Joe Schmoe down at the auto mechanics places to improve your mechanic skill?

I guess the answer might be maybe. But the truth is, that if the idea was extended too much, it could detract from what elements are part of the main story. In a Pirates! style game, I could see things like this working pretty well, of course, for that, you don''t need extreme specifics in peoples lives. In a detail oriented RPG, maybe someone''s grudge with another character would scare/kill an important dialog member. Are important NPC''s invernable to these kinds of issues?

So I guess I wonder, where does the extra gameplay come from? Is it merely the impression of size and detail? How do you generate these behaviors? Are they scripted or randomly generated? If random couldn''t it lead to contradictions? If scripted, who is going to do it?

dwarfsoft: a bit off topic for this board but: in short it is 4 different ways of breaking down the current game state according to that NPC. Instinct determines what things need to be done to keep the NPC in good comfort(alive). Personality determines what should be done so the NPC fits in his personality profile(like keeping away from disliked people). Memory sortof ties into the others as well, but on its own: its what the NPC knows it is currently doing and what it SHOULD be doing(aka schedule). and Logic just fits all these together and coordinates them. (need to go to the bathroom, but wont have an accident for a time yet and we want to finish this first...) and in theoretical tests, it works. but enough of that...

Ingenu: I think that by making NPCs free to do anything, they are more believable. A NPC who just stands there is not free or believable. An NPC who works as a blacksmith and occasionally goes with the soccer club to play is believable and free(as long as it isn't scripted). And then...who would want to script all their people to do things believably when they know the next step is to undo that work and make them free?

Potsticker: by making NPCs free, information is free. If one NPC knows something important, then he'll tell other NPCs. and if he doesn't then...it's the enemy's strategy. kill the guy before he tells someone.

Edited by - C-Junkie on November 28, 2000 5:03:50 PM

quote: Original post by Potsticker

So I guess I wonder, where does the extra gameplay come from?

This is a great question. I don''t think your traditional RPG is actually equipped to handle this kind of detail. You''re right that an open ended game like Pirates! would have no problem. But for RPGs the problem is one of goals. The typical RPG is highly goal driven, and a lot of the challenge comes from getting the right information to know what the goals are and how to solve them (that, and combat).

But with all the potential information this level of depth suggests, the player could be sifting through the proverbial haystack for the needle. If they ever got off track, or took a wrong turn, it would be hard to get back once you''d been lead down a few levels of information.

An alternative is to really signpost. But then, how does the freedom (created by a ton of extra work) add to the actual gameplay. Is it extraneous detail, just to fill out the world? Goal oriented players may find that irritating.

One possibility might be to make the extra info contained by the NPCs "bonus" info. You don''t __REALLY__ need it, but if you do go through the trouble, there''s some reward.

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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by Wavinator

But then, how does the freedom (created by a ton of extra work) add to the actual gameplay. Is it extraneous detail, just to fill out the world? Goal oriented players may find that irritating.

irritating??? it''s part of the game. if it''s something that has to be overcome, then the player isn''t roleplaying. and another thing is: why have a goal for the game? why not have the goal be to do whatever the player whats to? I think it''d be cool to live a character for a long time for the opportunity to read a biography of yourself after you die. (and then let the game run on a bit and find out the long-term effects of your actions. So if you decide to act like Jesus in this game, you could see if your ''church'' survives)

anyway, anyone interested in actually roleplaying wouldn''t think of it as irritating. after all, NPCs could think for themselves in PnP RPGs and it wasnt irritating. Goal-oriented players that find it irritating are just trying to make the RPG into an action game.

quote: Original post by C-Junkie

irritating??? it''s part of the game. if it''s something that has to be overcome, then the player isn''t roleplaying.

Coming from someone who''s working on an open ended RPG-like, I''d hope your opinion to be in the majority. But from what I''ve seen I don''t think it is. Part of the major draw of a CRPG is character advancement. This is marked and defined by goals (usually questing and monster bashing).

quote:
and another thing is: why have a goal for the game? why not have the goal be to do whatever the player whats to? I think it''d be cool to live a character for a long time for the opportunity to read a biography of yourself after you die. (and then let the game run on a bit and find out the long-term effects of your actions. So if you decide to act like Jesus in this game, you could see if your ''church'' survives)

Hmmmm... I hope you don''t hate space themed games... because that''s exactly the kind of stuff I''d like to do.

quote:
anyway, anyone interested in actually roleplaying wouldn''t think of it as irritating. after all, NPCs could think for themselves in PnP RPGs and it wasnt irritating. Goal-oriented players that find it irritating are just trying to make the RPG into an action game.

I wouldn''t be too hard on them. In fact, you could say that goal and story are inseperable, and even true RPers like to know that they''re advancing through the story and accomplishing things.

Another analogy, btw, is random maps. Wandering through the amount of data suggested by the examples above could be compared to wandering through a very interesting random map looking for a single city. Some people would just sit back and enjoy the exploration, but I KNOW others (many others?) would find it difficult. This is because the major base of gamers has shifted away from games where we decide what to do to games that tell us what to do then reward us for doing it.




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Just waiting for the mothership...