Well, this is the new post for The DOC as the previous one was getting crowded. Web version is available here I realised that this doc really has become a sort of FAQ for this forum . Basically because I keep refering people to it instead of giving long winded replies . Anyway - DOC needs improvement. What can you do to help? -Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche           

1) Remove the concept and overall drastic overtone of this is the way RPGs are , because I am sure many would disagree with a lot that is said in your doc.

2) Although your doc claims to be "the future of RPGs", all it really does is state what would be called "the present and past of RPGs"... what is your doc offering except all that has already been said and established about current and past RPGs?

3) You're missing a whole section on realism in RPGs. Your doc only talks about realism stressed as "[something that] just doesn't happen", or realism in combat. But where is the content regarding realism in personality conflicts, true (i.e. mastermind) evil vs. what all online games currently provide (chaos)? (I think I will start a topic on this at a later time.)

4) You also need to concentrate on a section solely dedicated to MMORPGS, which what I personally believe (and what market shares and retail sales might argue) is the future of RPGs. Once we, as game designers, are able to separate action strategy from "true" RPGs (where the main goal is presenting a believable character in a fictional world, and more than just what is currently available on the market), we might probably see a huge shift in the way online gaming is viewed.

5) Also take a serious look at the major flaws in MMORPGs, the main one being that there is no end, and there is no character or game recycling. (Again, I plan on starting a thread with this one.)

6) Your doc assumes that all RPGs are fantasy oriented. You must have played Fallout or Buck Rogers (old SSI game, not really a RPG, though it was considered one back then). There are many more definitions of RPGs than those whose characters tote swords and magic.

7) Your doc is missing a HUGE influence over almost any conflict, plot, storyline, goal, or thematic concept for almost any fantasy RPG: religion. Fantasy RPGs' stories are hugely directed by what god(desse)s are present in the game world. Even if nonexistant, they pose a negative or positive (or neutral) force based on their followers' actions.

8) And again for religion, note how, in online games, players will tend to honor (or blame) their actions on the god their character follows. There's a lot of psychology involved in MMORGPs, because people will tend to play characters that match their own personalities. (Having administered an online UO shard for 6 months, I can say this with some form of experience.) Players who choose evil-based characters may often blame their chaotic actions on what god they follow, and even attempt to justify it ("I'm evil! I'm supposed to kill and loot people!"), likewise players will honor and do good in the name of their characters' chosen deities.

9) Also note that, as MMORPGs evolve, we might eventually see them turning into online stage-acting, where players choose their characters more based on the plot entertainment they might provide, rather than the personal gain extracted from the environment.

That's about all I can think of for now.


MatrixCubed
http://www.MatrixCubed.org

Edited by - MatrixCubed on November 10, 2000 9:39:20 PM

Dammit, I hate my computer. I wrote a rather large amount of info and my computer had to lock up. Anyway...

Matrix,
I see what you''re saying but basically the doc is more a summation of all the concepts from this forum. Some may exist in games already, but I believe dwarfsoft''s concept is to have them all in one place good/bad, used/unused. I don''t think he means that they should all be used in one game, but it''s just sort of a way to preserve some of the more interesting concepts so that they don''t melt away with time. Perhaps you are right though. Perhaps the site makes people presume that dwarfsoft is saying all games must contain these items to be good, and is thus promoting the wrong idea. I have been around the doc so long that it''s hard to have a objecive view of it anymore


I have to mention this though. Although MMORPGs have tremendous potential, I still believe the single-player game still has a place. Games especially story-based games, can potentially have a more intimate experience when it''s story-based. In an MMO it''s hard to have the players be able to sleep and plenty other things if it''s MMO. I just don''t totally believe that 1,000 player equals great and 1 player equals out of date. MMO''s do have plently of untapped potential, but single player RPG[-ish] games have plenty of untapped potential too.


"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

quote: Original post by Nazrix

I have to mention this though. Although MMORPGs have tremendous potential, I still believe the single-player game still has a place.

Don''t get me wrong, note that I said there were sections missing, not that the entire doc should be oriented around, MMORPGs.

But you also need to look at technology. Heck, DirectX 8 has voice-over-IP capabilities now. It might not be perfect, but it does exist, and will evolve, and one great application of it where socializing is key, is in online RPGs.

And just like any and every other type of game, single-player RPGs will be around for a very, very long time. They''re a means by which the developers and designers can tell a story (where that is not possible or controllable in a MMORPG simply because of its ever-evolutionary nature).


MatrixCubed
http://www.MatrixCubed.org

Yeah, Matrix, I just wanted to specify that fact. Sorry if I misunderstood you. Also, I had a few alcoholic beverages when I wrote that, so I may have jumped to conclusions quickly.


"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


Edited by - Nazrix on November 11, 2000 4:09:28 PM

quote: Original post by MatrixCubed

1) Remove the concept and overall drastic overtone of this is the way RPGs are , because I am sure many would disagree with a lot that is said in your doc.

I thought I said something along with that in the notes. RPG''s aren''t defined... The whole reason I wrote the notes was so that people don''t get the wrong idea. If it isn''t in the notes then it soon will be

quote:
2) Although your doc claims to be "the future of RPGs", all it really does is state what would be called "the present and past of RPGs"... what is your doc offering except all that has already been said and established about current and past RPGs?

The title is a catchphrase. It was the original title and it orignially was about the future. Now it has expanded to include anything that may be considered a good idea or a workable system. If you have a better idea for a title then I am willing to change... Provided everyone else is cool with it

quote:
3) You''re missing a whole section on realism in RPGs. Your doc only talks about realism stressed as "[something that] just doesn''t happen", or realism in combat. But where is the content regarding realism in personality conflicts, true (i.e. mastermind) evil vs. what all online games currently provide (chaos)? (I think I will start a topic on this at a later time.)

Actually, I am getting to it... If it hasn''t really been discussed in depth here, then I am unlikely to have added it. Like I said, this doc is like a forum faq . Start some realism threads that actually work in the way that you state, and I will get to work on that part. Actually, I will add it in as a new topic and change the new version to v00.06.00

quote:
4) You also need to concentrate on a section solely dedicated to MMORPGS, which what I personally believe (and what market shares and retail sales might argue) is the future of RPGs. Once we, as game designers, are able to separate action strategy from "true" RPGs (where the main goal is presenting a believable character in a fictional world, and more than just what is currently available on the market), we might probably see a huge shift in the way online gaming is viewed.

Yeah, but a lot of the stuff is based on systems of <Blah> and so are really for both Single and Multi player games. If you have something that solely belongs in MMO then I would consider it... But so far nothing that has been discussed relates solely to MMO

quote:
5) Also take a serious look at the major flaws in MMORPGs, the main one being that there is no end, and there is no character or game recycling. (Again, I plan on starting a thread with this one.)

Yeah, I think I will write a rant on this one (New section called "The Experience" is where I am writing a few rants )

quote:
6) Your doc assumes that all RPGs are fantasy oriented. You must have played Fallout or Buck Rogers (old SSI game, not really a RPG, though it was considered one back then). There are many more definitions of RPGs than those whose characters tote swords and magic.

Um... I wrote a disclaimer (again in the notes) about fantasy. I really am short-sighted to fantasy (and am really biassed). I might add in a section called "Systems of Technology" (a counter to "Systems of Magic"). If you have some technology ideas then I will stick them in there, but I am fairly unfamiliar with systems of technology

Anyway, people can translate their fantasy elements to sci-fi elements given a little immagination and a little abstraction. Fighting systems can still be used, Magic can be replaced by technology... As I said before, this is a forum faq mainly... And so I really only include the stuff that I read and can word.

quote:
7) Your doc is missing a HUGE influence over almost any conflict, plot, storyline, goal, or thematic concept for almost any fantasy RPG: religion. Fantasy RPGs'' stories are hugely directed by what god(desse)s are present in the game world. Even if nonexistant, they pose a negative or positive (or neutral) force based on their followers'' actions.

I breifly brush over it as a part of a magic system. True, I haven''t gone into depth. Thanks for pointing this out... I will start on it right away

quote:
8) And again for religion, note how, in online games, players will tend to honor (or blame) their actions on the god their character follows. There''s a lot of psychology involved in MMORGPs, because people will tend to play characters that match their own personalities. (Having administered an online UO shard for 6 months, I can say this with some form of experience.) Players who choose evil-based characters may often blame their chaotic actions on what god they follow, and even attempt to justify it ("I''m evil! I''m supposed to kill and loot people!"), likewise players will honor and do good in the name of their characters'' chosen deities.

That is good... And gives me a suggestion as to quests being asked. GOD SAYS: "KILL AND LOOT TOWN" Do you accept? If no "YOU ARE DISOBEYING A DIRECT ORDER FROM GOD! YOU SHALL BE HUNTED DOWN BY YOUR BRETHERIN!" and if yes... And you complete it "GOD IS PLEASED" ... A fun element to have

quote:
9) Also note that, as MMORPGs evolve, we might eventually see them turning into online stage-acting, where players choose their characters more based on the plot entertainment they might provide, rather than the personal gain extracted from the environment.

That is a good start for an MMO section... I will start it!

quote:
That''s about all I can think of for now.

*sigh* aawwww *look of disappointment crosses the dwarvish features* And I was looking forward to some more great ideas

Thanx, that is the most feedback I have had in a while...

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

OK! I just uploaded a more asthetically pleasing Web version of the doc which is a preview to v00.06.00 (which means that it is v00.06.00 Alpha).

I have listed all of the new stuff, but that also includes stuff that I have not yet included in the doc. I am still working on the "Systems of Technology" so don''t expect to find anything there.

Anyway, as always... More ideas are welcome

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

Hey Dwarfsoft, check this out

http://www.gameslice.com/features/futurerpgs/index.shtml



One more time for the dumbies
ar+gu+ment n. A discussion in which reasons are put forward in support of and against a proposition, proposal, or case; debate.

WHAT! NO! THEY STOLE MY TITLE! AND THEY ONLY PUBLISHED THAT THING AFTER OCTOBER-26!!!!! I am sending them and email informing them of my doc, see if they can give us a link from that doc

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

dwarf, I''m gonna try to send you some stuff on the Skill WEb, anyway heres how I see "God" working:

First, no god would give any direct order. They are to great to consult with mortals. I see the structure as something like this: Gods->Avatars->Servants->Priests->Followers. Brief Descriptions:
God:
well, this should be obvious, but somethings about them anyway. the god will not speak directly to any mortals ,except perhaps high priests, or people who are questing after something that has direct and great benfit to the god. Other than that, they should generaly be somewhat arrogant, other than that their personality can be whatever you want. The God will almost NEVER appear in mortal form unless his very existance is threatened.
Avatars:
they are sorf of the "Angels" if you will. They perform all the actions and will consult with priests if they are needed. (though the priest had better have a good reason) They can generally perform microtasks, such as managing/answering prayers, etc. An oddity about them is that they can become mortal men (or women...) and take on tasks they deem necessary, or their god ordewrs them to.
Servants:
they are the "Saints". They are underling of Avatars and generally run errands to the earth, sortof like messangers. They have no special properties and can only deliver what spells or property the avatars ''give'' them to deliever.
Priest:
Should be self-explanitory, they have to maintain worship for their god, and must do something to promote his religion.
Followers:
Duh. The guys who believe in their religion. Unsure of what the benefit of following a religion should be. perhaps as a ''Guild?'' After all, they should already be there, and they''re free to join.