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Original post by Way Walker I think "immersion" as "immersed in these peoples' lives" is more to the point. When I'm immersed in a book or movie, I don't necessarily forget I'm reading or watching. I am totally interested in what's happening to these people.

Hmmm... that is a great distinction. This, of course, requires that the game world draw these people's lives out in more detail, as note with Wing Commander-- something that normally (?) doesn't happen in gameplay.

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Basically, the biggest part of the loss is not game play related. Now that I think about it, I think Wing Commander had a good formula. Well defined periods of down time between the action where you get to know the people you're fighting alongside. And I think that could transfer well to other game types if you're a little sneaky about it.

What I immediately wonder is whether or not gameplay could be made that specifically focuses on downtime. In WC, for example, you BSed around cards. Could you be playing cards AND occassionally choosing text options. I've never seen this before, and I wonder why.

[qutoe]
Another method that could help would be to define the barrier between "character" and "player" a little more distinctly. Make it feel a bit more like those Lone Wolf books I used to read. You controlled his actions, but they were still his actions and it was still a story about him. Maybe an episodic game would do well for this?

Yes, I think this works if that's an option, but not so much so if you want your player to be the main character.

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Original post by Wavinator Consider this gaming scenario: You're an immigrant to a new life of adventure on a fantastical colony world. You get a lot of adventuring freedom, and one aspect of the game involves building up home and hearth. You go through some bragging / wooing / questing gameplay to attract a mate, the game's timeframe skips, you get some appropriate in game options to raise a family (think genetic engineering). Midway through the game, you've spent so much time away from home that your spouse decides that they're leaving you. They can't take the abandonment and worrying. They're ARE taking 1/2 your treasure and the two kids. Oh, and they've taken up with your arch rival. Gameplay-wise, it's a non-starter. Why? Because as a hero, nothing emotionally messy is supposed to happen to us. This becomes silly emotionally if it doesn't affect your character or stat; or it becomes formulaic if it does ("send spouse x units of flowers to prevent divorce...") Am I right?

It could be done. The example above is how I see a game like Fable handling it. In other words, the wrong way. A bad game would have you send flowers at regular intervals, and come home all the time, or a window would pop up saying "Your wife has left you." and that would be that. A good game could actually achieve a genuine level of tragedy by involving it in the game's story, if only as color dialogue.

You're a young adventurer. Upon reaching a new town you find a young woman and instantly fall in love with her. But this girl won't get hitched to just any adventurer who can swing a sword. You visit her every time you come back to town. You send her letters filled with poetry and presents from faraway lands. You meet her parents. After many months (let's say 10 hours of gameplay time), she finally agrees to be your wife. After a grand ceremony and several years of living together you've been graced with two kids (we'll assume some accelerated time like Fable does).

Now, one night after some dragon slaying you find that the town is under attack and that most of the buildings are on fire (a random event perhaps). You rush back to your house to find your family being menaced by goons. You fight valiantly but they manage to brutally murder your wife and one of your kids (a better player might be able to save their whole family). A player will most likely be attached to their wife and kid after spending so many hours of the game with them. A good game will not cheapen their deaths by just playing it off. It has to incorporate it in to dialog options and gameplay choices. Your adventuring companion attempts to console you and you can blow him off, or weep like a little schoolgirl, or whatever. You have to explain to your remaining child why his mother was killed and why you have to leave him to take revenge.

The emotional impact of events like Aeris' death only work because of the investment a player has in that character. That only comes by building up countless hours with said character. You can't go the Fable route. In other words, no marriages after only flexing a few muscles. No multiple wives in every town you come across. No easy deaths or divorces that have no impact on dialogue options. The one sticking point is in saving and reloading. A game that wants to have realistic emotional impact will likely have to have a non-traditional method of saving.

So, yea, I disagree. A game *can* handle elements of personal tragedy outside of cutscenes and fixed storylines, but it has to give a player time to get invested, not present the tragedy cheaply or in a cheesy manner, and has to give the player enough options to role-play it in the manner they see fit.

I still say it's the same thing. Involvement with the character.

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Can you get this closeness, do you think, just by leveling up a generic character that you customize (speech, clothes, habits, quirks)?

Well, as much as you can get attached to a set of statistics. In this case, it's more like a creation, a work of art, rather than a character. I have yet to see a game where the gameplay really establishes character. There needs to be some story, some character development, and so if this isn't provided by the gameplay, then the story has to provide it. And so it's the combination of "closeness" or involvement plus a believable character and story.

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A player will most likely be attached to their wife and kid after spending so many hours of the game with them.

It depends I think on whether that element of character development is there, or whether getting a wife and kinds was just another quest. Working hard to get a new and and working hard to get a wife can be exactly the same thing in gameplay terms, and that alone doesn't generate a very significant attachment. In fact in a situation like that, I'd probably feel equally attached to my bow and my wife. Now, for the fun of it, let's say you gave the bow a personality. Made it a talking bow and whatever. Now I would likely feel MORE attachment to the bow that my wife.

tj963

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Original post by Wavinator Quote: Original post by Inmate2993 Surely, taking away your wife, 50% of your resources, and your two kids is a shitty situation that everyone will try to dodge if there was a game element for it. However, it seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to say that fiction has no place in gaming just because a few bad situations were written before. Maybe I'm being too harsh. But as you write it, isn't the situation to be avoided? If so, that's exactly my point. Quote: Also, it ignores all of the absolutely great situations that have occured. Examples?

I'm probably just agreeing with you, but lets take Final Fantasy Tactics (PS1), since it features both.

When Delita's sister Teta died, I tried throwing a pheonix down at the corpse on one of my replays. Didn't work. It shouldn't work, the story is hinged on Delita's tragedy.

Now try any situation when a dead character hit the three turn limit on death.

Another good example of attachement is Knight of the Old Republic (both I and II). In each one, the player gets the opportunity to invest some time in learning the background of his/her companions (you also have the option to blow them off).

After playing for a while, I do tend to become attached to certain characters in the game. I remember when the female Jedi is captured in the first one, I felt deeply frustrated and wanted to cut through the door to get to her. Moreover, my choices as a players affected my interaction with her as well as her demeanor. She could be saved or cast down at the end of the game.

Now that I think about it, having an effect on the NPC's behavior can become a good way of making the interesting and getting the player more involved in the story (even the non-RPers might get a kick out having the NPC's look up to them for something they did (and had a choice in doing!)).

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Original post by tj963 Also, I think the most powerful gameplay moment I can remember is when Aeris dies in FF7. Why? Because they killed a main character. Somebody I actually used significantly, somebody that had a real effect on the story, just died. It's just like it real life, the closer you are to a person, the more their death affects you, and in game terms, controling a character defines closeness in a way. And it was messy. All the time you may have put into training her, just wasted. I feel like I've invested something in her, some personal touch and effort, and that's what makes it important.

This is interesting example, since my personal reaction to that particular event was "woohoo, about time and she better _stays_ that way" ... i quite disliked the little bitch, and found her extremely annoying. Just goes to show you can never be sure the player is attached to character, even having spent lot of time "with" the character. ;P

On the other hand, the most powerful moment for me was when Rufus (NPC and technically a "bad" guy) dies in that game, in his office atop of ShinRa building. Perhaps a combination of sympathy for the character and the way it happened -- you could literally 'see the death coming' few moments in advance, so when it finally took place it had full impact...

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Original post by Evil Bachus A good game could actually achieve a genuine level of tragedy by involving it in the game's story, if only as color dialogue.

You really give me cause to stop and think. I had assumed that because the event was a non-linear possibility there wouldn't be a way of orchestrating events as with a story. The example you proposed, though, is kind of like leveling, which has a set of requirements and strategies that you can pursue in the game world. Wow.

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You're a young adventurer. Upon reaching a new town you find a young woman and instantly fall in love with her. ... You fight valiantly but they manage to brutally murder your wife and one of your kids (a better player might be able to save their whole family).

I'm starting to see a bit more possibility here. First, it has to weave into the story, like you said. In the case of a dynamic, freeform story, this would imply that you hold off on certain events. IOW, it's impossible to even obtain a virtual spouse at the start of the game; it's then impossible for the NPC to suffer tragedy until you interact with them for a certain amount of time.

If you don't interact with them much at all, then the gameplay could be that they simply drift away. Maybe you adventure for years on end only to return home to an empty house and neighbors telling you your spouse left ages ago.

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A player will most likely be attached to their wife and kid after spending so many hours of the game with them. A good game will not cheapen their deaths by just playing it off.

The spending so much time aspect is a difficult challenge. What are you doing while you hang out with your family? Are you training your son to fight or teaching them some skill? Are you telling them tall tales? Either this is expository and non-interactive, such as showing some people around a campfire and having some narration about the years passing; or these NPCs have to be useful in some sort of utilitarian way.

A greater challenge: The family now has to provide some sort of gameplay purpose to adventuring. Does your son make the arrows you need? Does your wife make healing potions for free? If not, then when you get back from the field, so to speak, you may be thinking, "okay, yeah, those are my kids, whatever..."

Or am I overthinking this? Can attachment be achieved through a very well written and flexible dialog system?

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The spending so much time aspect is a difficult challenge. What are you doing while you hang out with your family? Are you training your son to fight or teaching them some skill? Are you telling them tall tales? Either this is expository and non-interactive, such as showing some people around a campfire and having some narration about the years passing; or these NPCs have to be useful in some sort of utilitarian way. A greater challenge: The family now has to provide some sort of gameplay purpose to adventuring. Does your son make the arrows you need? Does your wife make healing potions for free? If not, then when you get back from the field, so to speak, you may be thinking, "okay, yeah, those are my kids, whatever..."

I think this would kill a lot of the emotion and turn it into just another "side quest". The process becomes mechanical and the "family" becomes a factory. Gotta check in every now and then to keep the arrow factory running. Like you said, it's kind of like levelling. Just another side quest.

If you make me spend time with them then, yeah, I'm going to be pissed if they die. Pissed, not depressed. I'll think of how many hours I spent, not how I'll miss the way she'd great me after coming back from a battle.

I think a good background story, as TheWanderer points out, is the key. Give me background story, then I'll get to know them. Only once I've gotten to know them will I be able to actually miss them for them, not just what they could do for me. You don't want me to think "I'm really missing that kid. I could really use some arrows". You want me to think "I'm really missing that kid. The smile on his face got so big when he'd hand me those arrows he made".

And why just family? Why not friends? Fellow soldiers? Or even the enemy?

And backstory shouldn't hurt anything. You can make it optional. So that those who don't care aren't bothered, or those who already know needn't sit through it. You can have whatever you want otherwise (like in FF7, who do you go on a date with?) so long as it stays in character.

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Original post by Way Walker I think this would kill a lot of the emotion and turn it into just another "side quest". The process becomes mechanical and the "family" becomes a factory. Gotta check in every now and then to keep the arrow factory running. Like you said, it's kind of like levelling. Just another side quest.

I do grant you that it becomes mechanical, but unless there's a gameplay purpose to them, it's not going to stick. I can't tell you the number of people, myself included, that find themselves saying "yeah yeah story blah blah whatever-- what does it do for me in game?" That's not to disrespect the people who really care about the intricacies of how someone or something came to be-- far from it, this is a vital framework. But without some kind of gameplay tie, they're no more than an optionally readable history book.

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If you make me spend time with them then, yeah, I'm going to be pissed if they die. Pissed, not depressed. I'll think of how many hours I spent, not how I'll miss the way she'd great me after coming back from a battle.

This "way she'd greet me after a battle" aspect would have to be good writing AND some sort of practical tie to adventuring, like free healing. Otherwise, why go back after a battle? Why not go to the hospital, instead?

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I think a good background story, as TheWanderer points out, is the key. Give me background story, then I'll get to know them. Only once I've gotten to know them will I be able to actually miss them for them, not just what they could do for me. You don't want me to think "I'm really missing that kid. I could really use some arrows". You want me to think "I'm really missing that kid. The smile on his face got so big when he'd hand me those arrows he made".

So what we're looking for is something about a character that's endearing. What things are endearing that can reasonably be modeled in a game (anvil dropped on the head to the first one who says "full 3D photorealistic facial modeling")

I still find myself thinking that this must be focused on gameplay, on things that happen to you, your goals in the game, and things you care about. Since not all who'd play an RPG care about story, it's got to be practical.

If I've got a son and that son is a trouble maker, I might care about that because it's lowering my reputation around town. I won't care about it if the game tells me, "your son stole the false teeth of old widow Isadora." Why? Because no matter how many times it happens, it's meaningless. My son doesn't change. Old widow Isadora doesn't change. I don't change. So what?

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And why just family? Why not friends? Fellow soldiers? Or even the enemy?

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And backstory shouldn't hurt anything. You can make it optional. So that those who don't care aren't bothered, or those who already know needn't sit through it. You can have whatever you want otherwise (like in FF7, who do you go on a date with?) so long as it stays in character.

I think the severe weakness of just backstory alone is as you describe: Replay or gameplay focused characters say, "yeah yeah, so what?" That's just too much like business as usual for my tastes.

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The spending so much time aspect is a difficult challenge. What are you doing while you hang out with your family? Are you training your son to fight or teaching them some skill? Are you telling them tall tales? Either this is expository and non-interactive, such as showing some people around a campfire and having some narration about the years passing; or these NPCs have to be useful in some sort of utilitarian way. A greater challenge: The family now has to provide some sort of gameplay purpose to adventuring. Does your son make the arrows you need? Does your wife make healing potions for free? If not, then when you get back from the field, so to speak, you may be thinking, "okay, yeah, those are my kids, whatever..."

I think the more game-like you make the family the less of an attachment you'll have. If the family just exists to make healing potions and arrows, then the player will see it as a necessary sidequest and just be using their family members.

I was thinking more along the lines of this: You return to your home after a quest, or during a quest, or whatever. You can engage in some idle chitchat with your family now in the same way you may talk with your partners in KOTOR2. The dialogues would be completely optional. You could boast to your wife about the dragon you slayed, and she would congratulate you. Or maybe you're having a hard time with the quest and your wife would just offer a few encouraging words, at which point you could graciously accept them or blow her off ("I don't need *your* help."). The more dialogue options, the better the attachment a player could make. Maybe your kid asks if you could train him a bit. You could either blow him off (and have your kid start hating you), or train him a little bit. You wouldn't gain any stats or gold or whatever from this, but it would strengthen that attachment for when some NPC did attack and kill your little Billy ("That was *my* kid that I named and raised and taught to swing a sword and play baseball and you come into my home and kill him!? I'll get you Dark Lord of the Swamp if it's the last thing I do!").

Or am I overthinking this? Can attachment be achieved through a very well written and flexible dialog system?

I think so. It would have to be well written. On the level of KOTOR2 at least. It would have to be optional. You can't force the whole family feature on ever player as that restricts your audience and annoys the players that don't want to raise a family. It couldn't just be a bullet point on the back of the box (Raise a family and teach your kids how to play baseball!) as that would cheapen the whole thing. A game that combined the free form style of Fable with the dialogue system of KOTOR2 would be a big step in the right direction. Does it show that I think the dialogue and characterization of KOTOR2 was the best part of the whole game?

Oh, and I keep using a family as an example, but the same techniques could be used in a number of different ways. Maybe you make a best friend at the tavern. Maybe you hire optional adventurers to join you. Of course, the more options you give the player the bigger a challenge it becomes to write all the dialogue options necessary.