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Original post by Ned_K Quote: Original post by Pxtl Two words: Sim Auschwitz. Discuss. Basically you summed up the issue. There's a difference between "politically incorrect" and fundamentally hateful material. A game like Sim Auschwitz, where your goal would be, perhaps, to maximize the through-put of processing Jews would be so sick as to be indefensible.

Agreed - this thread isn't about "political incorectness" - its about racism and ethnic cleansing. Still, I personally putting the player in the shoes of evil can teach the player something - how people justify the unthinkable. Consider that every act of national atrocity requires millions to be complicit in the act, and its important to understand how things come about. Too quickly people discard men like Hitler or Kim Jong Il to be inhuman monsters, when the problem is that they were/are human monsters. At some point they were normal humans, and somehow decided it would be expedient to commit atrocities. Play "Sid Meier's Colonization" - or any of the Sid Meier games - and see how people can justify martial law, or in Colonization's case, keeping the natives around as helpful allies until they get in the way, then wiping their primitive asses out. Perhaps a "Sim Concentration Camp" would be good - one where the player can be an Oscar Schindler or a Dr. Mengele, and will be punished/rewarded before, during, and after the war according to his behaviour.

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Original post by Anonymous Poster Just as a note, although Stalin was considered "a good guy" during the WWII, he killed and/or starved to death more people than any other dictator in the history, including Hitler. And those were his own peope, russians, not an ethnic group selected as an enemy to scare the public (jews back then or muslims today).

Very true. Sometimes nations are in a position to have to deal with such people as a matter of survival. That is not the position being discussed here, however, nor is it really the topic. Post-modern relavitism DOES seem to be the guiding light for a number of people in this thread but your example is of of a different stripe.

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Original post by Pxtl Quote: Original post by Ned_K Quote: Original post by Pxtl Two words: Sim Auschwitz. Discuss. Basically you summed up the issue. There's a difference between "politically incorrect" and fundamentally hateful material. A game like Sim Auschwitz, where your goal would be, perhaps, to maximize the through-put of processing Jews would be so sick as to be indefensible. Agreed - this thread isn't about "political incorectness" - its about racism and ethnic cleansing. Still, I personally putting the player in the shoes of evil can teach the player something - how people justify the unthinkable. Consider that every act of national atrocity requires millions to be complicit in the act, and its important to understand how things come about. Too quickly people discard men like Hitler or Kim Jong Il to be inhuman monsters, when the problem is that they were/are human monsters. At some point they were normal humans, and somehow decided it would be expedient to commit atrocities. Play "Sid Meier's Colonization" - or any of the Sid Meier games - and see how people can justify martial law, or in Colonization's case, keeping the natives around as helpful allies until they get in the way, then wiping their primitive asses out. Perhaps a "Sim Concentration Camp" would be good - one where the player can be an Oscar Schindler or a Dr. Mengele, and will be punished/rewarded before, during, and after the war according to his behaviour.

I agree up to a point but again, the original poster, and those defending him tend to be putting forward a type of game that doesn't exist to TEACH but to cater to a gleeful extermination of particular ethnic, religious, and political groups in order to capture that market "niche". If they had framed their ideas as you are framing yours then the issue being discussed would be very different. Having a game called "Sim Auschwitz" just for the sake of it as opposed to having such a game to try to teach some moral lesson (a VERY questionable and tenuous idea at best I might add) are two different things.

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Original post by Ned_K Quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster Just as a note, although Stalin was considered "a good guy" during the WWII, he killed and/or starved to death more people than any other dictator in the history, including Hitler. And those were his own peope, russians, not an ethnic group selected as an enemy to scare the public (jews back then or muslims today). Very true. Sometimes nations are in a position to have to deal with such people as a matter of survival. That is not the position being discussed here, however, nor is it really the topic. Post-modern relavitism DOES seem to be the guiding light for a number of people in this thread but your example is of of a different stripe.

As a note though...How many games were there between 1985 - 1989~1995 where the bad guys were Russians. Back then it was ok to kill russians for the sole point of being russian. This was do to the fact that the USSR were our primary rivals in the world and were seen in a pretty black and white way. I.E. We were good, they were evil.

On the topic of Nazi-ism. Germany was ripe for the rise of the Nazi party due to the fact of economic hardships brought on by the treaty that ended WWI. There was also a need to reclaim national pride that was lost after Germany's surrender. The country was looking for someone to blame, and that someone ended up being the Jews. However, the common nazi soldier and party member in Germany didn't know about the concentration camps, nor about the mass killing of Jews. Nor did they really care. This doesn't make them evil, nor does it make the innocent. IT is just the case. However the attrocities of the leadership and elite units of the German Nazi Party definately paints the entire nazi party as one that is entirely evil. This is something that has been grasped both by the Allies and in and the white spremacy groups across the country that idolize them.

Nazi party EVIL? Yes.
Every Nazi Evil? No.

Communism evil? Yes and No.
Communist evil? No
Communist dictator evil...most likely yes.


However the point of everything is that political incorrectness does sell in minor forms like BMX XXX and GTA but these are PIC games that appeal to a large audience. However Hate Games which the original poster commented on do not sell for the mainstream audience. If someone is very interested in games made like kill the jews there is a market out there and games have been made just for that purpose. There are hate lables out there for those games, just as there is for Hate Rap, Hate magazines etc. But they are definately NOT main stream.

There are of course people on the far left of the PC business. These are the people who claimed that Star Wars EP2 and LOTR were both racist...so I doubt that you can create a game now a days that doesn't offend someone in some way shape or form.

I'd personally like to see a SIM BUTCHER PLANT just to offend the PETA guys but thats my own opinion :D

-The point i'm trying to make is that Ethics and Morality is Relative, and subject to change. As such, a game being labeled "Politically Incorrect" or reprehensible is a matter of perspective, or ones opinion.

People can design and make games to help make a point, or to express their own views or beliefs, or simply for enjoyment. They then give them to companies to help distribute them, and those companies sell them for money. The drive to create such a game does not neccessarily have to be for money, but for the passion that its designer(s) have towards making it. There's alot of freeware games that are being made out there today that prove this. Games are a new medium, akin to Books, and Movies, its understandable that certain negative concepts will be expressed in them at one point or another.

-The point of my bringing up Nazi Concentration Camps, and Catholic run Orphanages is in response to your comment that its "alright to kill Nazi's", and that there's "a big difference between Nazi's and Catholics". I wasn't the one to originally make the reference between the two, if you bothered to read the link at the bottom of my last post. It shows that it doesn't matter what system of government you use, be it a dictatorship, or a Democracy, both are capable of attrocities.

Minorities, such as terrorists, small groups of abusive clergy,
Political Parties in control of a particular country, can cause people to generalize populations and lump them together. The most sophisticated survailance system being used in Nazi Germany during both World Wars wasn't used on the allies, it was used to control Germany's own population. There were some German's who dissagreed with Hitlers views, and there were some who had no choice but to fight because they were drafted into his army, with death as their only alternative, fearful that friends and family might turn them in. Even then soldiers and high ranking officials worked in secret to save lives. An excelent example of this is the movie "Shindler's List".

My point is, that i find it hypocritical that you condone attacks against Nazi's in general even though there were poeple forced into service who opposed the Nazi political party, and yet not make the same sweeping generalizations towards Catholics for similiar attrocities committed by Catholic Institutions.

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Actually it's ok to attack Nazis because they exterminated 6 million Jews and started a war that killed tens of millions. There's a difference between Nazis and the other groups you mentioned like Catholics generally or Muslims generally. A BIG difference.

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As a note though...How many games were there between 1985 - 1989~1995 where the bad guys were Russians. Back then it was ok to kill russians for the sole point of being russian. This was do to the fact that the USSR were our primary rivals in the world and were seen in a pretty black and white way. I.E. We were good, they were evil.

Yes, there are various degrees of this type of thing society is willing to allow. Portraying the Russians as evil was one of those "allowable" for a very long time in the U.S. I disagree that there are many examples where you can say this movie or that game said it was ok to kill Russian PEOPLE just because they were Russian (though I am sure there are a few). Most of those movies/books/games were very specific about the targets of their violence being Russian military people, Russian KGB people, Russian government people, etc. Now, that doesn't make it right, but it's different than the situation you paint. Furthermore, the Russian government, not the people but the government, were extensions of the machine under Stalin that was responsible for tens of millions of deaths. There was a degree of "evil" associated with the Soviet government. There also of course was/is a degree of "evil" associated with American actions over the years. However, I think that most reasonable people can recognize the difference in degree between the two superpowers.

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The country was looking for someone to blame, and that someone ended up being the Jews. However, the common nazi soldier and party member in Germany didn't know about the concentration camps, nor about the mass killing of Jews. Nor did they really care. This doesn't make them evil, nor does it make the innocent. IT is just the case.

Their military did not know about the Jews, mostly. The party members by and large did have knowledge that something was going on. Feel free to consult Alan Bullock's history on this fact.

But you do miss the point. They DID take part, willingly, in a war of aggression that killed millions of people. So, even if they didn't know about the concentration camps, they saw and supported the war. Whether they were "upset" about Versaille or not is not material. There is no justification. This is why the Nuremburg trials included a charge of conducting a war of agression.

I think it will do well if you put in negative truths and you do not discriminate. So basically say the bad part about every one and every ideology that way no one feels left out. People like to see shocking things which is why they call Howard Stern a Shock jock. People like to see car accidents which is why they slow down to see how bad a car is mangles. People like to see fresh things. People like to see controversy. People like to see the truth that pokes at the others side while they shrug off attacks on themselves since everyone gets attacks so they are all in the same boat.

Also another side not someone said that Jews back then in WW2 and like how Muslims are treated now which is not true. Even Hitler’s book was made with the Muslim Koran in mind by copying it, which is why news sources state that the #1 book besides the Koran in Muslim countries is Hitter’s book. I wonder he is getting the royalties from Hitters book. Hey these are facts stated by top news organization and to put something like this in a game would be historically insightful and compelling unlike most fake games that generally are mindless. And mindless games are an insult to us all.


[Edited by - Warsong on November 12, 2004 7:34:16 PM]

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But you do miss the point. They DID take part, willingly, in a war of aggression that killed millions of people. So, even if they didn't know about the concentration camps, they saw and supported the war. Whether they were "upset" about Versaille or not is not material. There is no justification. This is why the Nuremburg trials included a charge of conducting a war of agression.

If you look I specifically said that they were NOT innocent, but that they were not evil. There is a huge difference between good/evil and innocent/guilty. Germany was in a point of Empire building most countries of power were. If you look at England at the time they had "Colonies" all across the world including India, Austrailia, Parts of Africa and the Middle east, and even S. America. America was also building up an empire, but it was going along the lines of building puppet regimes than it was conquring lands. Germany was also trying to build an empire, but its biggest crime in the "War of aggression" was that it went against the other "Civilized" countries of Europe. I guarantee that if it had tried to control a non-eurpoe/US controlled country outside of its borders no one would have cried. (This was the attitude of the times, i'm not saying it was right or wrong.)

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The party members by and large did have knowledge that something was going on. Feel free to consult Alan Bullock's history on this fact.

What do you mean when you say party members...Do you mean Party Leadership, or do you mean the card carrying members? I would agree that most people in Germany knew that SOMETHING was going on with the Jews, but very few knew that they were going to death camps and being killed and enslaved. Most people didn't know exactly what was happening, and for the most part didn't care as the jews were being removed from thier pure country. In a way its along the lines of people going to prison...We don't know exactly what goes on in prison, and for the most part we don't really care until its brought to our attention.

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My point is, that i find it hypocritical that you condone attacks against Nazi's in general even though there were poeple forced into service who opposed the Nazi political party, and yet not make the same sweeping generalizations towards Catholics for similiar attrocities committed by Catholic Institutions.

People forced into slave labor or made to do certain actions FOR the Nazis, are not of course themselves Nazis, are they?
What similar atrocities have Catholics committed? Did they systematically slaughter 6 million people and start a war that killed tens of millions more? Of course not. The problem here is the comparison you are using.

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-The point i'm trying to make is that Ethics and Morality is Relative, and subject to change.

Some ethics and morality is not relative.

Edit Add: Do you want to argue the morality of murdering someone because it would be fun? Or raping someone for the same reason? Just because one group DOES something like that does not mean that it's suddenly morally relative.

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People can design and make games to help make a point, or to express their own views or beliefs, or simply for enjoyment. They then give them to companies to help distribute them, and those companies sell them for money. The drive to create such a game does not neccessarily have to be for money, but for the passion that its designer(s) have towards making it. There's alot of freeware games that are being made out there today that prove this. Games are a new medium, akin to Books, and Movies, its understandable that certain negative concepts will be expressed in them at one point or another.

AGAIN, I am not saying people shouldn't be free to make and try to sell whatever they want. But that's not the issue. I am not talking about "freeware" that someone can get from some extremist website. Again, if that is what people mean, there is no argument. But the original poster, warsong, made no such stipulation on what he was talking about. Therefore, the conversation turned to the mass production of such games and whether or not such a thing is moral/ethical/whatever if it would happen. Further, the conversation has zigged and zagged through a number of side arguments as well over history. My concern is not with some guy in his basement making a pro-Nazi game. My concern is with the original poster insinuating that to mass produce such games for the broader market is ok simply because there might be a market. There's a market for crack cocaine as well, that doesn't mean we should legalize it and sell it. Does it?

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-The point of my bringing up Nazi Concentration Camps, and Catholic run Orphanages is in response to your comment that its "alright to kill Nazi's", and that there's "a big difference between Nazi's and Catholics". I wasn't the one to originally make the reference between the two, if you bothered to read the link at the bottom of my last post. It shows that it doesn't matter what system of government you use, be it a dictatorship, or a Democracy, both are capable of attrocities.

Guess which one is worse, dictatorship or democracy? If you think they are comparable I have a bridge to sell you.

Hmmm...which post of mine did you take the "alright to kill Nazi's" quote from? I don't see it. Did I say those exact words or did one get changed in there?

Furthermore, you continue to not get my point. The Catholics hundreds of years ago who ran the inquisition were evil, you're right. If someone makes a game to splat Inquisition people, fine. Just like a game that does the same to Nazis is not an issue for me. The ISSUE is when you decide to paint ALL CATHOLICS or ALL GERMANS. Games about Nazis (or movies or books) invariably talk about the group from WWII (Though Nazi skinheads are notorious for violence and have gotten a few movies in their own right). Do you see?

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Minorities, such as terrorists, small groups of abusive clergy,Political Parties in control of a particular country, can cause people to generalize populations and lump them together. The most sophisticated survailance system being used in Nazi Germany during both World Wars wasn't used on the allies, it was used to control Germany's own population.

There were no Nazis in WWI. Try again.

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There were some German's who dissagreed with Hitlers views, and there were some who had no choice but to fight because they were drafted into his army, with death as their only alternative, fearful that friends and family might turn them in. Even then soldiers and high ranking officials worked in secret to save lives. An excellent example of this is the movie "Shindler's List".

And AGAIN, we are NOT talking about those people. When people talk about "the Nazis" and they refer to them as evil, they aren't talking about those who were forced to participate. At least, no one here is but you, as far as I can see. There weren't very many people working in secret to save lives who were members of the Nazi Party, btw.


In general what you have done here is to cloud the issue by raising the specter of those were forced to participate. No one is saying those people were complicit. But then, those people were also not really Nazis, or Communist Party members, or what have you. They are not the topic of discussion. We are talking willing participants in the crimes under consideration.

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If you look I specifically said that they were NOT innocent, but that they were not evil. There is a huge difference between good/evil and innocent/guilty. Germany was in a point of Empire building most countries of power were. If you look at England at the time they had "Colonies" all across the world including India, Austrailia, Parts of Africa and the Middle east, and even S. America. America was also building up an empire, but it was going along the lines of building puppet regimes than it was conquring lands. Germany was also trying to build an empire, but its biggest crime in the "War of aggression" was that it went against the other "Civilized" countries of Europe. I guarantee that if it had tried to control a non-eurpoe/US controlled country outside of its borders no one would have cried. (This was the attitude of the times, i'm not saying it was right or wrong.)

I am NOT talking about your average Joe German. This thread started by invoking Nazis in one of its opening comments. It went from there. Nazis. Not average Germans.

In any event, when Germany went to war, Empire building was already solidly coming to a halt. The British Empire was in decline and most colonial powers were gradually being pushed out of their holdings.

Germany's biggest crime in the "War of Aggression" (why the quotes, btw?) is that tens of millions died. Period. You are right about conquering third world countries and the double standard. But again, the existence of that standard does not excuse the destruction they brought.

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What do you mean when you say party members...Do you mean Party Leadership, or do you mean the card carrying members? I would agree that most people in Germany knew that SOMETHING was going on with the Jews, but very few knew that they were going to death camps and being killed and enslaved. Most people didn't know exactly what was happening, and for the most part didn't care as the jews were being removed from thier pure country. In a way its along the lines of people going to prison...We don't know exactly what goes on in prison, and for the most part we don't really care until its brought to our attention.

Yes, I mean the card carrying members. Not the average German in the street.