I have a title, 'Like Postal, But Good, With A Wee Bit O' Eternal Darkness' :)

Sounds cool. Is there a way to 'win'? Ooh, here's a good one, you try to find out why you're going insane-and I mean like a real life psychological reason. Better yet, the reason behind it can be tailored by the players' responses, and perhaps a questionnaire the player fills out. I don't think you'd want to put the questionnaire at the character creation stage, they might get bored with all that text-if you use text. You might try putting it in the game, like at the psychology research center of the game's local university. This would also throw the player off and make them think there is some research being done on the character, as I feel fairly safe in assuming that nearly all gamers will try to find a physical, concrete, conspiratory reason for their madness if their goal is to find it in a game.

Whoever asked, you become more afraid of spiders after killing them because you're afraid other members of the species will take revenge-actually a fairly common device in horror.

Additionally, the guy's girlfriend may have a questionnaire from a magazine she thinks it would be fun for him to fill out.

At the core, I think you have a great concept, which I would summarize as:

'You control a character who develops pyschological defects and eventually dies.'

Now here come a few comments I have.

The free world concept does not appeal to me to create. Oh sure, I would love to play such games but that's much like saying 'I would like to live in a palace but I wouldn't want to build one'.
The real world right now is ready and waiting with plenty of objects to manipulated in innumerable ways. To make a simulation of this and make a game inside of that always strikes me as ineffective.

'You die, it's permanent'
I think the natural ending to this 'mindfuck' game would be death. However the game ending because you threw yourself of the building right at the start or dying by eating your own shoes inside a mental institution after 6 hours of play should not really net the same result. (result being the 'You died' screen/animation)
Rather than that, you could have a thorough analysis of the dysfunctions you developed. Maybe just statistically/formally. (for example 5% arachnophobia 20% acrophobia etc. with detailed information about such phobia and how they are developed). On the other hand you could do this much more thematically: such as a psychological report from a police investigator.

Quote:

If you are done playing, you have to go to your house, and lay down in bed, and while you're asleep, you're given the option to quit. Since the game would save every 2 minutes, If you quit while out in the town, when you turn the game on again, something jacked up has happened since the game interprets that you either passed out on the street or sort of went on 'autopilot' for a while, as if you were possessed.

Although blackouts and waking up in strange places sounds like a cool thing, I would not appreciate this being tied to the 'save game' feature. Personally I feel that games should allow saving/pausing a game at any time. I don't like games penalizing me for picking up the phone or answering the door or going to bed. I do not like games forcing me to spend extra time to 'save safely'

Quote:

Original post by Wavinator Well, as somebody who's been futzing around with how to convey a sci-fi life I've really got no call to ask this, but I'm going to anyway: How big's your target audience? The draw of The Sims isn't that it's about average life. That only serves as a hook to get people playing who otherwise would not. The Sims is really about 7 or 8 stat timers which you have to strategically balance while trying to advance yourself. The stat timers (needs) act as short term goals and because they're expiring timers create a low-level andrenaline-based excitement. The fact that they're spread out over a 2D grid creates time-based strategic decision making gameplay. Compare Space Colony, the only competitor I know of, which uses different needs but creates the same interesting and intensive pressure. (The Sims also inspires character identification, the traditional tamogochi style "gardening" gameplay found in Sim games, and creativity through level building... but I'd put money down that those wouldn't be interesting without the timers)

The Guy would also have these stat timers. However, they wouldnt be displayed on any kind of a HUB. Of course you need to eat, you need to wash yourself, etc.. I havent thought of any specific approaches to letting the player know that the character needs something, but there will be in-game ways to notice. For example, possibly, you would hear a rumbling sound, and on your 2d character, your stomach would turn yellowish as though you're in pain. Also, depending on how hungry you are, or how dirty you are, or how badly you have to pee, events/abilities will change. I mean that if you really have to pee, you wouldnt be able to.. say.. ride a bike as long or as far. you know, like that. Of course you have to keep your in-game needs fullfilled, and that will be part of the playing experience. However, unlike The Sims, thats not the ONLY goal you have.

Quote:

Quote: Original post by Garmichael Depending on your choises, the game reacts to you differently. For example, if you never get the bread and milk, your girlfriend bitches at you. You'll have some challenges with content here unless this is a one off event, i.e., you don't care about replay value. If we hear the gf complain with the same voice over lines we'll become numb.

No, replay value is a big important factor of the game. I want the player to play through it several times, developing different insanities and get different missions and a different 'world' to live in. Also, since i want to base missions on the player's insanities, then each time through, you get different goals to achieve.
An exmaple: If you get an insanity that you hear voices, the voices might tell you to go talk to some guy, and when you do, you go on a story arc. You would only get that if the voices tell you to go to him.
Oh, and there would have to be tons of dialog. i cant stand when people say the same thing over and over again in games.

Quote:

Quote: Now, the main concept behind "The Guy" is that you start developing pyschological defects. You start going crazy. But its all based on how you play the game. some examples would be: -If you wash your hands alot, you become obsessive compulsive. You start to loose health if you dont continue to wash your hands all the time. You will also start loosing touch with reality, and when talking to people, you are only given options to say crazy things in response such as "Yeah.. yeah.. yeah.. uhm. yeah.. do youy know where a bathroom is.. yeah.. say yeah for me.". The funny thing is that the more you adhere to your obsession, the stronger it gets and the more of a neccissity it becomes. -If you rarely go on top of roofs or up ladders or anything, you start developing a fear of heights. When you have a fear of heights, the ground looks really far away and swayus back and forth, or rotates slightly. You also loose some ability to determine how far away the ground is. You may go up a ladder to change a lightbulb, and the ground will look like its a mile away. You'll need some incentive to do something or you'll quit playing. Try out this RPG as a quick testbed: Stickman RPG Try playing it for a couple of hours and you'll see how important it is for a game to have some sort of competitive pressure / problems to solve in order to maintain its interest

There will be incentive. I understand this painfully obvious technique of design.

Quote:

Quote: -Arachnophobia.. if you kill lots of spiders, then you start to fear them. Agreed with the poster above, this should maybe be changed to some other type of exposure. Unless you want the player to obsess over killing them, which is different from fear.

yeah, bad example, people.

Quote:

Quote: These are just a couple of examples, but i plan to have a whole slew of obsessions and fears and such. The problem I see here is that unless you have a system with goals, gameplay options to attain them and strategic tradeoffs, you'll be creating nothing more than a pretty artistic statement. That's no problem if that's what you want, but you'll need something more to turn it into a real game.

"There will be incentive. I understand this painfully obvious technique of design."
Like I said, its a basic concept, not the fully fleshed out version with every side-quest explained and every detail pointed out. I dont need 'tips' on basic gameplay structure.

Quote:

Quote: Also, I want to make it so that if the player themselves have those obsessions or fears, they start to manifest in the character they're playing. Ive alreayd though of a few ways to do this. :/ You mean you want the player of your game to develop an obsessive compulsive trait?

No, I mean that if you, in real life, have a fear or something or a quirk about yourself, then the mental condition will be greatly exxagerated in the game to your character. For example, I have random compulsions to do things i know i shouldnt. I have some ideas where the game can detect the player's minor insanities (we all have them), and then expoit them.

Quote:

Quote: The option to use legal and illegal substances will be available. You will also be able to get addicted to a drug. Taking Fallout and various meds (Radaway, for ex) as a model, the only reason why you cared about addiction was because it presented some type of challenge to what you cared about. You needed radaway to navigate some areas of the game, and with certain characters thus had to risk addiction. I think Stims worked the same way... if you wanted an edge in combat (something you had to care about it you wanted to live--ie, keep playing-- or level up--ie, feel progress and change gameplay) As I read your concept I imagine that I'd have a tough time caring about my character. Addiction would matter if it a) made me make strategic tradeoffs that I didn't want to make or b) presented interesting gameplay that was otherwise inaccessible.

Again, i understand basic gameplay design.
In this game, using any substance will have its benifits and disadvantages. If you use Meth (speed), then you can react to things faster and your creativity is increased. However, your social skills are decreased. Plus, the more you use it, the more of a dependancy you have to use it.

Another thing is that since there would be high replay value (like The Sims), then i expect a player to play through it more than ocne, and be willing to 'experiment' with things that they werent willing to try the first time through.

Quote:

Quote: If you are done playing, you have to go to your house, and lay down in bed, and while you're asleep, you're given the option to quit. Play the stick figure RPG and don't use the backpack option to teleport back home. Walking back home after working at McDonalds (aka McSticks) or going to school becomes aggrevating. Simple things you want to always be able to do should be the default choice, and therefore practically automatic.

Ive thought about this. I know how inconvenient it would be to have to walk home to save. Especially when you just dont want to play anymore. But since the game AUTOSAVES, if you shut it off without finding somewhere to sleep, you can wake up with effects that change the game. Its not like you'll die or anything. You'll just be put in a fucked up situation and have to work your way out of it to continue playing wiht your origional objectives.
Alternatively, you have an option to sleep anywhere you want. you can go to sleep under a bridge, on a bench in the park, in a grassy field, at the beach, etc.. But if you turn it off while awake, thats like going into autopilot and you may get yourself into trouble.

Quote:

Quote: Since the game would save every 2 minutes, If you quit while out in the town, when you turn the game on again, something jacked up has happened since the game interprets that you either passed out on the street or sort of went on 'autopilot' for a while, as if you were possessed. The problems I have here are: 1) it seems as if you're just being malicious, which severely disrespects your players' playing time, which is not a way to win new customers 2) if you're going to put the work into making bad things happen, they should be challenges, not things you fall into by dealing with a kludgy save system 3) spacing or passing out is thematically integrated into the concept of what you're proposing, and should thus be things players are TRYING to do, which means you should reward them

blah blah, im not even going to comment on this. Just because YOU PERSONALLY wouldnt like doing this, doesnt mean it wouldnt add to the game. Its like saying "I persoinally dont like turn based combat, so no one will buy a final fantasy game".

Quote:

Quote: One example would be once you load up, the screen is all black. You would immediatly be given somestuff to say. or you could be silent by not saying anything. All the mean while, you hear voices saying stuff like "Where should we put the body if he doesnt talk". If you choose osmehting to say, then you words are all muffled. Then you start to see light again, and its a mobster standing over you. He throws a bandana on the ground, and thats your clue that you were blind folded. See, here would be an interesting hook. You'd need to fleshout the gameplay options because right now what you really have is a crude puzzle: Press talk option, win; don't press, die. Abstract A/B choices with no input as to consequences are inarguably BAD choices.

You didnt get the grasp of what i was trying to say, obviously. its not an A/B choice at all. its all a fluid thing. the gmae DOES NOT PAUSE. EVER. unless you hit pause, in wich case its an all black screen with "The Guy" logo, and a "pause" message.
When you're in a conversation with someone, you get hte options of things to say as they're talking. Cant htink fast enough to choose one? Too bad. just like in real life, your social skills wouldnt be very strong.

In this situation, you can try and talk at any time. while the mob guy is tlkaing, while hes not. whatever. the game doesnt wait for you to decide. its a do or die situation, and you have more than an A/B abstract solution

But agian, thanks for teaching me basic core gameplay as if I were a 4 year old with a box of crayons.

Quote:

Quote: then you're subjected to torture and told to answer questions that you know nothing about. Stop for a sec and think about this: So I'm tortured. So what? Why do I care? Does torture alter some stat, resource or skill that I care about for long term goals? Does it alter my play experience in such a way as to make the game different. IRL torture begets pain and focuses the victim on the near universal fear and regret of morbid dissolution. But in a game I could give a damn. The only reason I fear death in games is because it means I'll lose something: Progress, should I care about making it; my limited gameplay time; or some resource, stat, opportunity or change in the world I wanted. Since you're going into such existential territory it's hard to want anything. In GTA at least you wanted better cars (different gameplay experience + social cool factor); better weapons (more power + more ability to impact the world); and the ability to unlock missions (more gameplay goals and exploration + feeling of progress)

If you die, you start over. Not many poeple like to start a game all the way over. ESPECIALLY if theyve built an ultra custom character. Since you have control over so many things about the character: from the way they look to the way they act, to the way they interpret the real world, you wouldnt want to lose this character. Hell, I feel like crap when i lose a Tony Hawk character just cuz it looks like me.

Since the game will be so in depth and will change EVERYTIME you play it, then when you get a one of a kind character going, losing it would suck. Also, I expect the player to play and screw up a few times. Just like in any Sim game.

Quote:

Quote: Oh, and in this game, if you die. its over. the end. You must start over. I think you're in designer mind rather than player mind, otherwise you'd never have suggested this. What does this feel like to YOU as a player? To get a taste, I recommend that you play Escape Velocity Nova on strict pilot mode without a pod. You'll find yourself dying quite frequently, oftimes because of things far out of your control. This at some point becomes mindless. AFAIK it's been shown that the only target audience that appreciates relentless repitition are 12-13 yo males who learn patterning and wish to master systems. If that's your target audience then this may work, but the longer the game goes and the more time you can invest in it, the harder a sell this I think will be.

Waht happens int he Sims? when you die, its over. the end. The same concept is here.
to compare this type of game to Escape Velocity is just dumb. sorry.
the game will not be refjdsj oh fuck it. I dont care to explain this to you.

Quote:

Quote: Also, as you become more and more crazy, you start to become delusional. An Idea we had was that as youre walking past a park, you see imp monsters about 4 foot high running around and shooting fireballs. You can either confront them and attack them or soemthing, or you can run from them. If you confront them, they turn ut to be children. If you run from them, you become even more delussional and manifestations haunt you even more. Problem again: The first time you may have a shock value, but it'll peter out very quickly into a "so what." Consider: You find that you're attacking children. Well, unless this means something in the world in terms of options, choices, strategic tradeoffs, resources, etc, don't expect the player to care, especially the more jaded ones (who in GTA will kill a prostitute after oral sex just for the fun of it) If your delusions grow stronger, this again is a so-what unless it impacts the same critical gameplay elements I've mentioned above. Finally, you've again presented an adventure game puzzle which loses its appeal after it is known. Once you know they're children if you don't want to make that choice you're left with the game designer's version of Hobbson's Choice-- i.e., a default that is no choice at all, and thus no fun.

Okay, lets explain this to you. You seem to have a VERY classic approach to game design and development. good job. Whatever.
But time goes on, and people's expectations from games change. Maybe we should all still be playing Super Mario 3, but we're not. Games break the mold. If someone told you the concept behind The Sims, you would have the same doubts: "Blah blah who cares about the character etc etc".

This is not your standard game where every time you play it, its the same game.
BASED ON THE PLAYERS CHOICES, the game changes.
This means that if the player is a sadistic fuck who likes to kill children, then their representation of the game becomes different, and you're given missions or quests to do things that coincide with your pyschotic nature. You could [play through it as a crazy bastard who gives in to the delusions, then the game is now based on those delusions.
If you're playing it as someone who has tons of fears, but no compulsions or insanities, then the game will be drastically different.

Now, i can see where you think it'll become 'so what'. But since the game MUST BE DYNAMIC AND EVER CHANGING to be fun, then the delusions and crazyness will manifest themselves in different ways. also, if you're constantly on a trip where children are imps and old women are Harpy's, then trying to figure out the world will get harder and harder. If you have those problems, and your girlfriend asks you to do something simple, and you cant do it, you risk the relationship with her. Also, the crazier you get, I plan on letting you meet new crazy poeple as partners.. or meet people who dont exsist.

Your bit about the Hobbson's choice Moot, and i hope I have explained clearly enough for you to understand why it is.

Quote:

Quote: This game would be sort of played like a mix between The Sims, Fable, and Knights of the Old Republic. Except NO rpg element. I mean, no menus, no stats, nothing. But as you play, you have the choice to do missions and stuff for people. Sorry, I'm really not trying to eviscerate your idea, but I strongly recommend that you not mimick another game or even draw influence from it until you understand WHY the elements exist as they do. Why do KOTR, Fable, The Sims (on console) or even GTA have missions at all? Missions do present interesting puzzles and combat challenges, yes. But if it's puzzles you're after, then you're making an adventure game, in which case you'll be working in a declining market where you'll need good graphics and an even better story; if combat is your selling point then you'll need to create a good, no-nonsene combat engine which satisfies the expectations of that crowd. Look for example at what became of American McGee's Alice. It too was touted as a trippy psychological game; so was Sanitarium. But under the hood these games had to rely on nuts and bolts adventure / reflexes gameplay. Missions exist in the games you mentioned, btw, because they advance something care about-- and that's the element you're proposing to discard, advancement. Advancement begets investment which begets emotional attachment and ultimately a good experience as you take your beloved avatar through challenge after challenge.

The missions will be pretty much stuff you have to do for money, for social relations, for new missions, for new story arcs.. I plan on haveing quite a number of story arcs.. meaning stories you're involved in that you can leave at any time. Suppose theres a story arc where you're tyring to impress your girlfriend's parents.. there could be several missions involved.

Oh, and the missions wont be called 'missions'. theyre more like 'shit to do'. and there wont be a sub menu where you can go look at all the shit you ahve to do. you just have to reember, like in real life. If you forget, then bummer. You forgot. Possibly, there would be a timestamp in the save file, where if you havent played the game in a couple weeks, then you'll get an option to view a quick list of stuff you have to do. No details. just stuff like "Meet your girlfriend's mom at Coco's Resturant" or "Pay rent on the 3rd". stuff like that. No minor things would be listed. thats stuff you either remember to do, or you dont.


also, As i was saying earlier, the game changes based on the player's way of playing. If you play it in such a way that you do alot of fighitng, you'll get more missiosn where you fight. Eventually, you could make this game combat driven. Or, if you want, you could try and play in a way to get the furthest possible without going insane, in wich case, its a game of 'do all the missions right'. You could even try your best to get new girlfirends, and turn the game into a huge dating sim. But no matter how you play it, the underlying theme is that you're going to end up crazy.

Quote:

Quote: Of course, theres a bunch of details I still have to hammer out. Ive got a notebook full of insanities and fears, as well as missions, reactions, delusions, and random crazyness. Im also going to be studying psychology on an amature level just to get some sense of why and how poeple develop fears and insanities. I want the whole game to flow so smoothly that you dont notice yourself getting crazier. Before you do that I'd really suggest getting some gameplay fundamentals clear first. Greg Costikyan is my favorite source for this, but Chris Crawford has some good stuff too. This 1994 article, I Have No Words And I Must Design is Game Design 101, IMHO.

I have the game play fundamentals clear. The problem is that you either dont understand them, arent willing to undersand them, or they arent conventional enough for your standards.

Quote:

Quote: I know it sounds sort of like "Whats the point", but i see this sort of as a stoner's version of The Sims. If there are a bazillion underserved stoners out there very much pissed off because no game caters to their unique perspective on reality, I stand corrected. Design away. But otherwise, please do check out the resources I mentioned so that your very fresh perspective can have a chance at coalescing into a cool yet workable game.

to be honest, your critique of the game gave me no further insight on how to change, run, mod, or otherwise improve my game. I spent most of the time telling you how you dotn get it. You seem like you know a bunch about game design, but you really seem more concerned about appealing ot the masses than experimenting and creating art. To me, video game design is an ART. My techniques are obviously drastically different from yours and you seem pretty interested in making sure your ideas are the best, and you shoudlnt stray from conventional game design. I've been playing games for a long long long time, and i know what works, what doesnt work, and what has the potential to work.

Thank you for your critique, however. Its always good to know who agrees with you, and who disagrees with you. Sort of like an unpaid market strategy. And i DID post it to see what other poeple thought.

Quote:

Original post by Dunam_ 'You die, it's permanent' I think the natural ending to this 'mindfuck' game would be death. However the game ending because you threw yourself of the building right at the start or dying by eating your own shoes inside a mental institution after 6 hours of play should not really net the same result. (result being the 'You died' screen/animation) Rather than that, you could have a thorough analysis of the dysfunctions you developed. Maybe just statistically/formally. (for example 5% arachnophobia 20% acrophobia etc. with detailed information about such phobia and how they are developed). On the other hand you could do this much more thematically: such as a psychological report from a police investigator.

You know.. I thought a little bit about the 'ending'.. basically the reward given to the player for playing so far.
But to be honest, I didnt put ALOT of thought into it.
And I have to say, i REALLY, REALLY like the idea of having a thorough anylasis given at the end of the game.
Possibly, I could include Extras for finishing the game in different ways. For example, if you die with a fear of heights exceeding some amount (not sure how i want to measure the fears), then get something special.. I dont know what yet.. Some ideas on this would be highly appreciated.

An idea i just had was that you could play a custom world thats significantly smaller than the 'real' world int he game. Suppose it would be about 3 city blocks by 3 city blocks only. But as you finish the game with exceeding marks in the different insanities or fears, you could load into the mini world, and choose what fears and insanities you have, and play around with the effects.
I dunno. something like that would be kinda cool.
Possibly even include another character in the game who was your old character, and makes a cameo or something trippy like that.

Quote:

Quote: If you are done playing, you have to go to your house, and lay down in bed, and while you're asleep, you're given the option to quit. Since the game would save every 2 minutes, If you quit while out in the town, when you turn the game on again, something jacked up has happened since the game interprets that you either passed out on the street or sort of went on 'autopilot' for a while, as if you were possessed. Although blackouts and waking up in strange places sounds like a cool thing, I would not appreciate this being tied to the 'save game' feature. Personally I feel that games should allow saving/pausing a game at any time. I don't like games penalizing me for picking up the phone or answering the door or going to bed. I do not like games forcing me to spend extra time to 'save safely'

Yeah, I understand your concern about that. it IS annoying. but like the real world, you cant just shut your brain down while you're at the grociery store.
Read my reply in the post above for a more detailed measure on the save feature.

Quote:

Original post by RolandofGilead I have a title, 'Like Postal, But Good, With A Wee Bit O' Eternal Darkness' :) Sounds cool. Is there a way to 'win'? Ooh, here's a good one, you try to find out why you're going insane-and I mean like a real life psychological reason. Better yet, the reason behind it can be tailored by the players' responses, and perhaps a questionnaire the player fills out. I don't think you'd want to put the questionnaire at the character creation stage, they might get bored with all that text-if you use text. You might try putting it in the game, like at the psychology research center of the game's local university. This would also throw the player off and make them think there is some research being done on the character, as I feel fairly safe in assuming that nearly all gamers will try to find a physical, concrete, conspiratory reason for their madness if their goal is to find it in a game. [...] Additionally, the guy's girlfriend may have a questionnaire from a magazine she thinks it would be fun for him to fill out.

I thought about doing something liek that at character creation, but you're right, its boring to do that.
Possibly, a mini-survey could be taken. Something like 10 questions, all multiple choice and totally easy. stuff like "What are you most afraid of", and "What is your favorite color". Theres alot of stuff that determins a person's personality.
I want to put in a museum where the player can go look at paintings. I will put in some NPCs maybe who randomly come up and say stuff like "This is a lovely piece, isnt it?", and if you respond either way, then based on the art's core design elements, the game gets an idea of your personality.
Alot of psychological stuff liek that.

also, I really like your idea of taking a quiz from your girlfriend.

Ok, it sounds to me like you're thinking the player's "goal" when playing this game will be "find out all the different weird trippy shit that can happen". If no matter what you do, you end up crazy, there's no way for the goal to be "try to stay sane"...especially because being sane doesn't give you access to all the weird trippy shit. I suppose the goal could be "find out how crazy you can possibly get without being shot, put in jail, or relocating to a nice quiet place with padded walls". But I think it's mainly for the weird trippy shit. In which case, its main market will probably be stoners who are too poor to buy it, heh.

Now, for a useful idea. Have the little printout of all your insanities and stuff at the end. And if you meet certain criteria, you unlock new fears/psychoses/characters to interact with. Maybe the first time you play the game, you don't have an option to become a drug lord. But by the time you unlock a few more options (maybe they unlock randomly? I dunno) you could. In which case, you'd have to make sure that at least a few of the starting options were interesting enough for someone to bother playing it long enough to unlock all the other stuff. (I'm remembering a time when a bunch of us were stoned, and played Tekken 2 all night to see if we could unlock all the characters. We would've got sick of it long before we did if we'd been sober, heh.)