quote: Original post by Ketchaval

I can''t really comment on the Sims in Space idea, not having played The Sims, although it doesn''t strike me as a good idea to combine it with your space-exploration rpg game. Too complex, and doesn''t really sound like it gels with the "You the player, and you alone are the master of your destiny vibe". As a stand alone product it could be fun for a while. Wouldn''t appeal to the same people who bought the Sims though?

Thanks Ketchaval. I''m so used to people disagreeing with my ideas that I was starting to get nervous.

I''m wondering how much the line between sim and RPG can be blurred. Can management of your crew blend with missions, as girl in the box was suggesting? In many cases, as she said you''d be taking your "house" (ship) with you on the mission.

What do you think of this senario (borrowed from an old TNG episode): While cruising the cosmos you find a stellar fragment that''s about to sweep thru a solar system. It will destroy the system. You discover a single, genetically perfect colony, established centuries ago and forgotten.

Your mission is to try and save them. Everything that follows involves your "Sims" interacting with the colonists, and your management and mission choices. Maybe you send Deanna Troi to get a sense of the colony''s leadership and way of thinking because she''s an empath. Maybe you send Geordi LaForge to interact with the colony''s scientists, to see if there''s a scientific solution.

As Picard, you''d make command decisions about who to risk where. Rather than just combat problems, you''d have social and scientific problems as well. Interactions could produce drama (Deanna falls for the colony leader, LaForge doesn''t get along with the science staff because he''s blind and they''re biologically perfect) which complicate the problem solving. So a lot of the game would be preparing yourself (right equipment, right gadgets, right crew) and then using what you''ve got to solve the problems.

I agree w/ you that this is risky, btw. In an RPG if you have a party normally they''re really all mindless extensions of you. But think what rich gameplay could come from group dynamics!

Look at Star Wars, or Aliens, or Babylon 5, and how interesting it was to see the characters in conflict and change. If you include some of the "darker" sides of human interaction (jealousy, revenge, duplicity, murder), and you''re in control as leader, then maybe this would be an acceptable blend?


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Just waiting for the mothership...

As I say I HAVEN''T played The Sims, although to me it sounds like the world''s first 3rd Person RPG. Not as in Fallout which is viewed from a 3rd person perspective, but as in you are WATCHING people ROLEPLAYING ! in the home environment. (Okay The Sims may not be as advanced as this.)

The idea is interesting (possibly quite promising Adventure-RPG-Sim), but I think that there would have to be quite a serious consideration of how the player controlled the characters, and how much control he had over them. There would also need to be a forgiving structure to the game, with "multiple solutions" to each segment of the game. Ie. There is would be many viable approaches to each character interaction section, diplomacy, force, cowardice, stealth... (Would this mainly be about character interaction, rather than spacial reasoning)

Would the player be a disembodied force, or have some control over reliable things to act as backup. Ie. You are the bio-organic sentient computer who runs the ship, work with the crew and use your robots if all else fails? -Would this be a workable comfort blanket for the player who wants direct control?

What would be the feedback mechanisms? Would you watch them talk to characters, or have Sims style sign language? How would you give orders, point and click or menu.

Worth thinking about .

quote: Original post by Ketchaval

The idea is interesting (possibly quite promising Adventure-RPG-Sim), but I think that there would have to be quite a serious consideration of how the player controlled the characters, and how much control he had over them.

Yeah, this is a toughie. Do they respond perfectly like in an RPG or an RTS, or become rebellious and unresponsive like in the Sims. Since I want the possibility of mutinies, I''d lean toward the latter.

This implies that you have to be able to set tasks and goals, but at the same time not have exact knowledge of what your sim crew is doing. (More on this in a sec)

quote:
There would also need to be a forgiving structure to the game, with "multiple solutions" to each segment of the game.

True. I think this will be a bit easier because the game isn''t bound to a linear narrative where you have to succeed to keep playing. It''s open ended, and if you can''t accomplish something then you can always go elsewhere and come back when you''ve improved.

quote:
Would the player be a disembodied force, or have some control over reliable things to act as backup. Ie. You are the bio-organic sentient computer who runs the ship, work with the crew and use your robots if all else fails? -Would this be a workable comfort blanket for the player who wants direct control?

I''m really excited about this possibility: YOU are a character. You have attributes and capabilities. Like Picard, if you''ve trained you could fill in for Navigator or Engineer in a pinch.

Why do this? Because I want loyalty to matter and crew misbehavior / mutinies to be possible. You can''t do everything by yourself, so you need your crew. There could be gameplay in figuring out who''s loyal, and if combat is acceptable then a shipboard mutiny would have *interesting* tactical implications.

(BTW, you can have robots that are 100% loyal but a bit dumb, and an abusive Captain Blye might want a few to keep the ship in line. )

quote:
What would be the feedback mechanisms? Would you watch them talk to characters, or have Sims style sign language? How would you give orders, point and click or menu.

Man, those are great questions!

I don''t like the idea of the made up simlanguage. But real dialog is murder. It might be useful to have some hybrid mix of text and sign language. (I may even have a scheme for generated dialog. )

As far as orders, I''m a "select and click" fan. I''d like you to be able to click on someone and then click on a console or gadget.

If there''s intrigue, tho'', this complicates things. You can''t have both hidden actions and perfect knowledge. If you tell your angry engineer to fix something and decides to ignore you or sabotage something, how do you represent this?

One way would be a sort of fog of war. But rather than hiding the ship layout, you show characters where crew are supposed to be vs. where they actually are.

I have to be careful with this, tho, because a lot of the fun of the sims comes from observing them. I''m therefore thinking that the Captain (player) is like the camera in the sims. You can observe interesting things happening wherever you are, and elsewhere they''re going on under cover of the fog.

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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster.

I wouldn''t try to make this one small part of a game. I would let it be your keystone or not do it at all. Could you imagine if the game were mainly about winning a war, or privateering, but your crew refused to follow orders? That would just be frustrating, like sloggy response in a fighter game. On the other hand, if the game was mainly about managing the personalities of your crew through various scenarios, it would be an entirely new game, and quite fun to play.

Not that you can do *everything* in a game but...

what if your crew *did* refuse to follow orders? Unresponsive AI in Starcraft inspires me with homicidal rage, and I gather it PO''s others as well.

But what if the crewmember piped up with a defiant response? Or demand? Or request?

"I''m not going in there alone!" (confidence variable)
"To hell with that, I''m tired of you!" (personality)
"You''re getting us killed!" (history)

Now, assume that *YOU* are also a character. What if you had a few interaction options with this crewmember:

-Offer a reward / bribe

-Deliver an ultimatum

-Click your inventory, pull out your sidearm, and target him (gun to the head, so to speak)

This interaction would impact the rest of your crew. Think about the mutiny scene in "Saving Private Ryan" if you saw it.

Heh, and all this could be going on as the bridge is falling apart all around you! Talk about *dramatic*!!!


(PS: Game designer cult worship? I like it!!!

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Just waiting for the mothership...

King of Dragon''s Pass was a bit similar to what you''re describing. You ran a tribe/clan of Vikings and had a handful of advisors to help perform actions, give advice, and whatnot (your ''senior staff'')

The player got to allocate resources in a few different ways, make decisions from random-ish events, and decide on actions for the tribe to engage in (Explore vs Build Temples vs Diplomacy).

I''m sure I can find a link if anyone is interested.

quote: Original post by Wavinator

Not that you can do *everything* in a game but...

Of course, that's what I'd be worried about. I'm thinking that if this were all going on real-time, the player wouldn't have time to deal w/ personalites && keep track of a battle raging on outside the ship. (or in the ship, or whatever)

I was thinking though, that maybe you could make the bulk of this management happen in phases that either the player could initiate, or the game loop initiates through slow parts of the action, like travel sequences. Then, if you were managing poorly, you would have the realistic penalty of a mutiny attempt mid-battle, or of course the bonus of a crew that ran like a well-oiled killing machine if you manage well.

That way, you wouldn't have to interface socially during the combat unless it was either advantagous to do so, or you are being penalized in some way. The main objection I would have is cluttering the interface in the middle of heated action. Unfortunately, that's also one of the major strengths:

quote:
But what if the crewmember piped up with a defiant response? Or demand? Or request?

"I'm not going in there alone!" (confidence variable)
"To hell with that, I'm tired of you!" (personality)
"You're getting us killed!" (history)

This would work well, and create game-generated drama, but I would make it somewhat rare, ie. extreme cases where:

1. the crew member was a serious wimp (which should be made obvious through the social phases) in which case you should have put him in the engine room, or on KP duty not on the front line, or the "danger value" was greater than the "confidence value", which could of course be mitigated through greater numbers, greater crew loyalty, better armaments, etc.
   
2. You really PO'd this crewmember. Maybe you've been feeding them straight kelp mash, or maybe you sold his Android lover off for parts
   
3. this guy just got hit w/ his best friend's dismembered limb *ecchh*
   

Point is, I've been rethinking the all-or-nothing idea, (Sims in Space v. a Bar or Two Representing Happiness and Bladder Control, Nothing Else) and something more moderate like this could fit neatly into your existing design. I would just seperate the control into semi-discrete phases, and not use the exact same game phase for socializing and combat, except in extreme cases. Of course that's just my (insert witty $.02 reference), but something semi-solid to chew on, right?

quote:
Now, assume that *YOU* are also a character. What if you had a few interaction options with this crewmember:
-snip- great examples

Are you always the captain, or can you start as a "red shirt"? Just a thought, but if you were including this kind of interaction, wouldn't it be great to be the crewmember instigating the revolt?

quote:
This interaction would impact the rest of your crew. Think about the mutiny scene in "Saving Private Ryan" if you saw it.

Heh, and all this could be going on as the bridge is falling apart all around you! Talk about *dramatic*!!!

This is great stuff, exactly what I'd like to do w/ my games: Drama resulting directly from gameplay. It would just add a whole new feedback to a player's style. I'd like to see what Black and White does with this. Anytime you allow the player to inject their personality into the game, and do it well, you've got a hit on your hands. Skins? MODs? *BAH* I want to see my crew quake in fear as I apply the Jedi Death Touch to the lead mutineer. Then I'd like to start over and run a laid-back pirate vessel with frequent coffee breaks. Yeah. . .now if I can just finish my #$%#! Bosconian clone, I'll be in business. . .

If you see the Buddha on the road, Kill Him. -apocryphal

Edited by - Anonymous Poster. on October 1, 2000 1:54:28 PM

Edited by - Anonymous Poster. on October 1, 2000 1:56:24 PM

Anonymous Poster. Quote "but something semi-solid to chew on, right?"

Mmmm, Rusks.

Cool Idea !

What about being able to positively or adversely affect the lives of the other characters? And learning about their lives after your character completes his tour of duty and retires ? Which maybe a good idea in this type of game, to stop people being bored with POINTLESS toy style play with characters.

In Fallout 2, MINOR SPOILER - There was a character in the game, and you learn of his/her (I'm being deliberately obscure here) fate whichever way you have completed the game. Now it is possible to meet this character and have him/her join your party.

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IDEA !
I thought that the concept that the way that YOU BEHAVED when he joined your party COULD CHANGE HIS/HER outlook on life was fairly awesome ! Ie. If you went around mugging, slaving and destroying things then s/he would become a bad character, or if you were a good guy who saved people he might learn from your example!

Now in a Character based game, what these characters would learn from you might depend on their starting personality, like if they were impressionable they could be persuaded to change their life around. And if you taught them discipline, then maybe they would take these lessons to heart. Or maybe not, or if they were cynical... etc.
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(Okay this doesn't seem to happen in the game, but I played the unpatched copy).
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There is a guy in the South village called Tony, he's a Ninja.

Edited by - Ketchaval on October 1, 2000 5:52:33 PM

I think that Dungeon Keeper is an attempt on making a RPG and Sim mix and to some people it is good - to others it is bad - mostly because it is a bit RTS like.

I have another question for you all, isn''t all games a simluation? You simulate a world. What makes a game a "Sim" is the amount of detail put into the world and the level of direct control you have over your characters.

I my opinion you just have to take a detailed and "alive" world (like the one everybody is talking about all the time - The Sims are very close) and place your characters that are under your direct control in that world.
What I am saying is that there seem nothing really new in combining Sim and RPGs. It has been the goal of RPGs all the way to provide full environments for players to be in. Think about Ultima VII - it at least gives you the illusion of Sim like characters.

Jacob Marner

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster.

I''m thinking that if this were all going on real-time, the player wouldn''t have time to deal w/ personalites && keep track of a battle raging on outside the ship.

Great points (as usual ). Yeah, it seems natural to me that all the personality difficulties should melt away during combat. I mean, after all, the entire crew is threatened, and all but the most extreme personality differences should melt away.

I''m thinking, as far as interactions and combat go, of Jagged Alliances, where you people pretty much did what you told them too but sometimes got into skirmishes with each other in the middle of the battlefield. Maybe this would be, as you say, an extreme case of mismanagement on your part as Captain.

quote:
This would work well, and create game-generated drama, but I would make it somewhat rare, ie. extreme cases where:

-snip great examples

I like your situational examples, but I''m wondering something: Isn''t the issue one of combat pacing? For example, let''s say you had a consistent level of social interaction during combat control.

If you''re in the middle of combat and shooting, you don''t want to have to manage personalities-- another great point.

But what if combat had sort of an action movie pacing? One of the things that happens a lot in action movies is drama during cover or standoffs. Look at the Lethal Weapon series, for instance. You get lots and lots of shooting, then a pause for drama and character development, all during the combat phase.

This would demand a *very* streamlined interface, I know. But I''m thinking of things like the scene in Aliens where everyone''s in full retreat, Drake falls in combat, and Vasquez wants to go get him. There''s a mini-struggle, with Hicks grabbing her as she tries to go get him.

Or another scene: Where, in Star Trek: Generations, Lt. Data has become paralyzed with fear and can''t move, right in the middle of a fight. I''m not totally sure this would add depth even if it could be done, but it''s just a thought.

Other than that, I __REALLY REALLY__ like the idea of a social phase, then a combat phase. Peacetime breaks, like docking or travel or whatever would be really good for this, and could really reveal your crew''s personality.

quote:
Are you always the captain, or can you start as a "red shirt"? Just a thought, but if you were including this kind of interaction, wouldn''t it be great to be the crewmember instigating the revolt?

Hahaha! If there was _SOME GOOD WAY_ of getting the game to work when you''re not in control, I''d say absolutely. I''d actually love to do this, but the question becomes can I keep the player occupied when he''s not in command? What would he do? I can see him interacting with the other sims, that might be fun. But doing things on the ship implies a notion of stations with actual gameplay to them.

Darn! It''s much easier to do be a soldier than a Starfleet ensign!

This is great stuff, exactly what I''d like to do w/ my games: Drama resulting directly from gameplay. It would just add a whole new feedback to a player''s style. I''d like to see what Black and White does with this. Anytime you allow the player to inject their personality into the game, and do it well, you''ve got a hit on your hands.

Yeah, if I commit to this then I''ve really got to work out these interactions. Figuring out how the players should respond, and how to put this all into variables and such would be tough, but fun!!!

And I''m also thinking… in a game with no story that has RPG elements, wouldn''t a party that creates drama substitute nicely for predefined story? Maybe not *as* good, but it could keep you entertained!

quote:
Skins? MODs? *BAH* I want to see my crew quake in fear as I apply the Jedi Death Touch to the lead mutineer. Then I''d like to start over and run a laid-back pirate vessel with frequent coffee breaks.

YES!!!!! This is exactly the feel I want a player to have! Hahaha! Talk about a customized, personal user experience!

quote:
Yeah. . .now if I can just finish my #$%#! Bosconian clone, I''ll be in business. . .

Bosconian? Cool, I just played that on MAME! It was fun, but a little quirky. Just posted a thread on top down arcade shooters, if you wanna brainstorm.

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Just waiting for the mothership…