I lost a huge post on this here, so here is a synopsis. 1. Special Encounters in games display the man behind the curtain. (Ie. show that they are scripted by game designers). They do this for several reasons including RISK / REWARD, the inability of the game world to make such an encounter happen naturally. Ie. If you know that no animal gives birth / makes nests, you will be less likely to believe that these are natural things. 2. These encounters / special encounters are there to make exploring interesting. Ie. Caves / fields should have something in them to be worth visiting for. So how about making systems where more things seem to happen spontaneously, ie. ecosystems , or just a pretend food chain (depending on mood of creature.. hungry + NOT frightened = Attack "rabbit"). NPCs could attack other NPCs if they are angered etc. If there was a basis of a framework where things could emerge naturally, then the designer could make TRANSPARENT SPECIAL ENCOUNTERS. Where for instance it spawns a 2 bears (1 hungry, 1 amorous) (3 rabbits). With a small amount of randomisation of positioning, these would seem more realistic, and you would also be able to have such things occur naturally. Ie. If instead of a rabbit, you had a golden coated deer. then the player might want to kill it and skin it, before the hungry bear could ruin it''s coat, he might have to kill the bear before it attacks the deer though... The Golden coat = A REWARD MECHANISM. A lot of fun could be had with such systems, as it would be an emergent system, where interesting stuff would occur spontaneously, and also it would have special encounters seamlessly spliced in which would spice it up even more, and guarantee interesting things would happen.

quote: Original post by Ketchaval


So how about making systems where more things seem to happen spontaneously, ie. ecosystems , or just a pretend food chain (depending on mood of creature.. hungry + NOT frightened = Attack "rabbit"). NPCs could attack other NPCs if they are angered etc.

Ketchaval, bud, you''ll always have a place here at my virtual table. We''re on the same wavelength.

I was just thinking of this as it applies to battles. Let''s say you want to stumble on a battle already in progress. Further, assume you have decent AI for your game actors (orks, or starships, or whatever).

If you randomly or semi-randomly place your actors; and randomize or alter in a some semi-random manner their stats (damage level mainly I was thinking), then you may well have a sense of a natural encounter. You could encounter a fight that''s just beginning, or ending, or somewhere in between; you might find a pitched battle, forces in the middle of a retreat, etc.

Now add a further wrinkle: Who the actors are determines what is going on. Let''s say we spawn a bandit and a lightly armed trader. We could get the middle of a robbery, or it''s end, or it''s beginning. Lots of possibilities.

The key I think here is in the AI and the situation generation. The AI for each actor would need to respond to the gamut of all conceivable situations. This sounds daunting, but simple rulesets and emergent behavior might be the answer. Rules like, "run toward friendlies when hurt" and "save my own neck before doing anything else" would seem to apply.

Situation generation, as I''ve seen mentioned before, should be tied to some sort of system (the ecosystem you mention is an excellent example).

As far as problems go, one major challenge will be balancing things. Systems will need a natural equilibrium that players can''t completely disrupt; this might help things like the monster depopulation problems in UO (which seem to be, oddly enough, much like a "deforestation" problem). Pacing will be another (not too much and not too little generation). Continuity will also be an issue (what happened to that merchant I just saved?!?!)




--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

To increase verisimilitude, and thus reduce suspension of disbelief, make a rule system whereby the things which form the basis of encounters / special encounters HAPPEN NATURALLY as part of your Universe.

With such a system in place, you can then manipulate the variables / rule system to implement normal "encounters". By encounter, I do not just mean combat. But situations where there is a possibility of meaningful change, depending on player choice.

With a Special Encounter, I mean the sort of situation where there is a more interesting place or NPC -OR- greater RISK / REWARD. Ie. You find a dragons nest with a baby dragon, there is a quite large amount of heavy gold coins and a large gold Crown in the nest because the Baby Dragon is teething and needs a teething ring . You risk an extremely enraged mother dragon if you start messing around too much. Will you try to stealthily take the money, grab the crown and upset the baby dragon, kill the nesting dragon, try to steal the other egg, wait ''til Mummy gets back? Walk away quickly? (High Risk-Reward situation, with some prescripted humorous elements, although that said it could be made so that they naturally teethed with different things... sheep?).

Thus the game designer could gently interweave the emergent behaviour and situations of the rule set.., with prescripted situations chosen from a huge list at random (as long as it fits into the current scenario / game balance).

Like the special encounters (and less dramatic/ less reward based prescripted normal encounters).
---------------------

Hey Wavinator, yes we do seem to be on the same game design wavelength . That said I''ll only be posting challenging stuff here once a week from now on, as I have to go back to Uni.

That was me posting.
---------------------



Edited by - Ketchaval on September 21, 2000 7:15:28 PM

Wavinator Quote"Systems will need a natural equilibrium that players can''t completely disrupt; this might help things like the monster depopulation problems in UO (which seem to be, oddly enough, much like a "deforestation" problem). Pacing will be another (not too much and not too little generation). Continuity will also be an issue (what happened to that merchant I just saved?!?!)"

I was thinking that the "ecosystems" would really be the equivalent of a combination of a AD&D Dungeon Master Guide style encounter table, and an AI heirarchy? which shows the general predator / prey factor between different species. (+ Whether they want to hunt or flee, or graze).

Thus monsters would appear like in Baldur''s Gate.



I think that the natural equilibrium can be faked, as long as the player doesn''t have god like powers. (Certainly in single-player). I don''t know how the depopulation aspect worked in Ultima Online, but in a single player game, unless you can burn a forest down, that will hide most of the animals. (Line of sight).


Maybe creatures will migrate to nearby regions if you are that powerful / bloodthirsty, and you would be able to retire peacefully into a wooden hut.

The algorithms for this would be (should be) HUGE. To give a limited, semi-coherent example: Lets say there''s an area beset by brigands. (ever notice how they''re never robbers or highwaymen? always brigands) Now the player''s route to point B happens to pass through here. Is he attacked? Now, you could consult a lookup table for a *yawn* raw percentage, or you could apply a base percentage *yippee* modified by such common-sense variables as the seclusion of the area, time of day, the player''s talent at going unseen (if they choose to apply it),how richly the player is dressed, the number of people in the player''s party, how well-known the player is, and so on. Why bother you ask?

Why? Isn''t that bleedin'' freakin'' obvious? Jeez. Some people. Because now you have a system that the player can react to in many ways, and you don''t have to script it at all (ok, well a little). For instance, since the brigands are far less likely to attack a hermit, the player could go out of his way to dress himself and his party in the basest rags. (a value assigned to each article of clothing/armor representing its ''richness'' would not be overkill, as this would be applicable in several situations, such as a charisma modifier) If the player is trying to draw the brigands into a confrontation, he could leave some of his party back aways and advance alone, or accompanied by one or two. When the brigands attack, the player could call in the reinforcements. If the player is so foolish as to travel through dangerous woods at night, he deserves to be attacked. There could be some items with a "hideIdentity" trait for those famous (or infamous) enough to wish avoiding attention. The possibilties are nigh-endless, and w/out that terrible combinatorial explosion that happens when you attempt to open up a system to too many types of interaction.

Of course, this extends to what actually happens w/in the encounter as well. If you provide the player w/ a few ways of interacting w/ the world, and many rule-based ways of applying them, you can expect to have a great game that really engages the mind. And I do believe I mentioned: Doing it this way,you don''t have to script out every special encounter! That throws the only good objection towards more open-ended gaming out the window!

You do run the risk of the player never realising that there''s so many alternatives to simple hack ''n slash, but that''s more a topic for a different long-winded post.

But I''ll be back, so be sure to rest up your retinas. *cackle*

In the meantime, I''d really like to hear your responses. I prolly won''t be back tonight, but I''ll try and check back tomorrow evening.

If you see the Buddha on the road, Kill Him. -apocryphal

Who is this Man behind the curtain that you are talking about, the evil warlord that has masterminded the plot ? I don''t understand? Why should he be behind a curtain, is he a spy?

How will a player know when a special encounter is upon them if they are not signposted or are they? Do you mean that the game system will make these special encounters or that there is also a list of things that can happen? But the player won''t know that I the GAME DESIGNER made this thing happen in the game if I don''t say "SPECIAL ENCOUNTER" before they meet this creature. Should every encounter be "Special" to the players, or only "Special Encounters" !!! I''m sorry I''m not flaming but I do nut understand youre point?

Anonymous Poster (registered), Quote"For instance, since the brigands are far less likely to attack a hermit, the player could go out of his way to dress himself and his party in the basest rags. (a value assigned to each article of clothing/armor representing its ''richness'' would not be overkill, as this would be applicable in several situations, such as a charisma modifier) If the player is trying to draw the brigands into a confrontation, he could leave some of his party back aways and advance alone, or accompanied by one or two."

Such a system would provide more gameplay options, and would help to allow the player to be involved in little "stories" (See "Story by Gameplay" thread in Game Writing forum. .

Anonymous Poster (not understanding the post) "But the player won''t know that I the GAME DESIGNER made this thing happen in the game if I don''t say "SPECIAL ENCOUNTER" before they meet this creature.

Interesting questions.

1. Game design isn''t about YOUR EGO (not being harsh), it is about the player''s ENJOYMENT + ENTERTAINMENT. Thus they shouldn''t know that the cool things that they come across in the game, (like that Dragon''s Nest) are DESIGNED BY YOU, they should think that they are part of the universe, that it is a real part of this fantasy world that they are exploring and interacting with.

2. Think that you have inadvertently noted what I am trying to say when you said this " Should every encounter be "Special" to the players, or only "Special Encounters" !".
Yes, I believe that EVERY ENCOUNTER IN THE GAME SHOULD BE SPECIAL ! try to make each step that they take a journey into the unknown.

-Back next weekend.

Heh.I tried making a ''real'' world for my RPG once.The AI was quite good, but there were some problems.

quote:
original post by me--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here''s something interesting for all of you dealing with AI out there.I''m working on a Role Playing Game called Runemaster, and until a few weeks ago I was working on AI.I wanted my monsters and NPCs to behave smartly and be able to learn...
(Note that the game will be very detailed, so even monsters and NPCs have to eat.)
OK, the whole thing was based on a database with the names of the monsters, theirs stats, the areas in the game etc etc.
In the beginning it was easy.I started with a simple if-code, and there were five areas in the game.Three "forest" areas, one "town" and a tower.There were three types of food : apples, grass and berries, with different nutririon values etc etc.
The monsters walked around the forest, eating when they were hungry (there were no graphics, just text - e.g. "blob eats apple at forest1").But they could learn.If they were in the same area as another monster that ate something else, they could learn to eat that also (very simple).BUT I messed up, using some functions the wrong way.One villager (man3) could go into the forest and cut down trees, with which he made food (not too realistic).

Here comes the funny part...when a monster was in the same area with the man who cut down trees, IT SUDDENLY LEARNED TO EAT TREES.This is the most stupid thing I''ve ever seen.
The story goes on...
Later I put a sorcerer in the tower.Sorcerers can cast what you might call "custom spells".The sorcerer also identified the monsters in the forest as his enemies.When I had gotten this far, I thought I might soon be able to implement this into the game.But there was one problem.The sorcerer did nothing.I could not understand my mistake (although, of course, it was one).Then, one day, I just let the progam run and waited.After about 15 minutes I get the message "sorcerer cast custom fireball // blob 999 damage // blob2 999 damage // tree1 destoyed // ... and so on, I even got ...//man1 800 damage // house1 destroyed // ... and so on.AND THEN I ACCIDENTALLY CLICKED ON SAVE AND MY WHOLE DATABASE WAS RUINED.
I won''t be doing AI for the next two months and concentrate on something else.

Watch the movie THE THIRTEENTH FLOOR.It''s great.

A lot of people were interested, back then.In the end Khawk told me to e-mail him with the source, which I never noticed cause my PC got f*cked...Now I''ve got a new one, but the code is gone....As soon as I''m finished with Acronia I hink I''ll re-write it ...


Runemaster now working on Acronia : Secrets of Magic
Join the Game Developers RuneRing !
The Specular Lightosis Research Fund
This is a message from God: "Rebooting the universe, please log off."