Richard Maltby "Hollywood Cinema" p. 398-399

..." feminist criticism that suggested that within mainstream cinema the gaze of the camera, and the position of the spectator, were inherently masculine. The most influential contribution to this argument was Laura Mulvey''s 1975 article "Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema," in which she appropriated the psychoanalytic approach of apparatus theory "as a political weapon," to demonstrate "the way the unconcious of patriarchal socity has structured film form" 120

One important aspect of Hollywood''s "magic" she argued, was its skilled and satisfying manipulation of visual pleasure." Hollywood "coded theerotic into the language of the dominant patriarchal order," so that an active male spectator gazed at a passive female object. Mulvey proposed that the cinematic pleasure in looking was gendered: within the cinematic iction, "woman is posited as image, man as bearer of the look." Although the spectacle of femininity appears at first to disrupt the narrative, "the split between spectacle and narrative supports the man''s roleas the active one forwarding the story, making things happen." In addition, a movie''s male protagonist "emerges as the representative of power in a further sense: as the bearer of the look of the spectator," deploying it to neutralize and contain the disruptive spectacle represented by the woman. This containment takes the form either of narrative sadism, in which the woman is investigated and either punished or saved (film noir, for example), or fetishism, in which the glamorized image of the woman (Marlene Dietrich in Morocco) is presented as a "perfect product," in "direct erotic rapport with the spectator" 121. By orchestrating the "three looks" of spectator, camera, and character, the cinematic apparatus naturalized a masculine gaze in the service of patriarchal ideology, leaving the female spectator without a gaze of her own.
Mulvey''s analysis relied on a body of psychoanalytic speculation whose relevance to cinema was only asserted. It also depended on the claim that a link could be made by analogy between the look of some (but not all) characters in the fiction and the look of the spectator (all spectators) in the movie theater. The link allowed her to support an account of the spectator''s subject position with evidence drawn from the plots of movies. ..........
"

*********Ketchaval ---, this discussion of L.Mulvey''s work carries on further in the book. But I think you can get the gist of the theory. Whether you agree with it or not, it provides some interesting interpretations and questions for game design and the way that women and men are portrayed in games, ""laura Mulvey "woman is posited as image, man as bearer of the look".""

Think about how Lara is portrayed as the ''star'' of Tomb Raider, does she represent an image of a woman where the "male" player is encouraged to ogle her pixelated hot-pants? How does the way she is portrayed relate to the woman that have to put up with bust while they play etc.

Food for thought, anyway.

quote: Original post by Ketchaval

Think about how Lara is portrayed as the 'star' of Tomb Raider, does she represent an image of a woman where the "male" player is encouraged to ogle her pixelated hot-pants? How does the way she is portrayed relate to the woman that have to put up with bust while they play etc.

Food for thought, anyway.

I find many feminist arguments in terms of "visual fetishizing" a bit too one-sided and puritanical for my tastes. "Looking" is a matter of appreciating and coveting beauty. It's not a gender thing, as women do it just as much as men. They may be more covert about it, or may get more social censure in some cultures, but they're on par with men here. Like all false dichotomies, this one relies on stereotypes to power it's argument and ignories variances in individuals. (There may be an argument that men demand physical perfection while women demand emotional perfection, but that's a subject for the Lounge)

I think almost every man and woman is influenced by, attracted to(and even duped by) beauty in one way or another. So to find beauty on display and highlighted in movies and games would seem inevitable. As someone else noted earlier, it's a symptom of our attraction to the "ideal" rather than the realistic.

After all, are we asking for ugly sets, settings, designs, attire, etc? No, we're asking for what's appropriate to fulfill the fantasy. As soon as fantasies of the ordinary come in vogue, we'll get more ordinary looking women in our games (the Sims, anyone?)


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Just waiting for the mothership...

Edited by - Wavinator on September 19, 2000 4:03:48 PM

I''m not saying that I''m taking this feminist viewpoint, but pointing out that the way Tomb Raider is designed / promoted seems to be more towards a male perspective, and think about Everquest, where AFAIK all the female characters in the game from the box art onwards have large (fantasy) busts. And I agree with MadKeithV that if the Tomb Raider series wanted to get "sexier" that they should concentrate on other things than her appearance, MKV gives the example of taking off her gloves suggestively. Although whether they SHOULD do this depends, and I am pointing out that were they to go towards such things, they would be pandering more towards the male audience with the woman as the object of the camera..

I note in these games, though, that the male heros are usually beefy, brawny, Aryan (heh, there's another topic) supermen as well. It's really a question of culture. Don't know if it's strictly an American / Western phenomena, but the attributes shown are what's valued in terms of beauty by American / Western society.

If small chests (or feet, say like in certain parts of Japanese culture) were valued, then that's what would be on the box. Same would be true if more rubenesque shapes were in vogue. That's a price of conformity and social organization.

Regretfully we're not as advanced as we think (even the most sophisticated of us). We like bright lights and flashy colors. We gawk at disasters. We can be sold laundry detergent if a model tilts her head in a way that reminds us of mom.

Tomb Raider looks the way it does because of the ideals of not just men, but women as well. Just look at Barbie!!! Nordic perfection is obviously something imbedded deep in common western psyche, and it will take a lot of trend bucking and myth busting to pull it out.

Good luck on that!

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Just waiting for the mothership...

Edited by - Wavinator on September 19, 2000 7:29:38 PM

Dang nabbit, I had to read that article twice to understand what it was on about!
And I disagree... VERY strongly. That''s probably because I think feminism is a product of a massive inferiority complex, but still...

Women look at men just as much as men look at women. Women make movies too - and I tend to like them just as much. In fact, I tend to DISLIKE the ones that are particularly geared towards men because they seem to assume that I just want to see bigger boobs and a rounder behind, and I DON''T. That''s why I mentioned the glove - if you want to make Lara Croft sensual, you''ll have to do it with behaviour, not polygon modeling. I don''t get my kicks drooling over screenshots.


People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~

quote: Original post by Wavinator

I note in these games, though, that the male heros are usually beefy, brawny, Aryan (heh, there''s another topic) supermen as well. It''s really a question of culture. Don''t know if it''s strictly an American / Western phenomena, but the attributes shown are what''s valued in terms of beauty by American / Western society.

My, you haven''t been keeping up with recent studies, have you?

The largest study done to-date (synopsis)reports that women prefer men with more ''feminine'' faces: high cheekbones, narrow jaw, less emphatic brow ridge, etc. Appearances of male video game characters reflect what men think women ought to think is attractive, not what women actually like. An exception being FF7 - you can find lots of bishonen shrines dedicated to Sephiroth in particular.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow

My, you haven''t been keeping up with recent studies, have you?

Hahaha, I guess not. Although, it will take more than one study for me to buy this one. But if it''s true, Duke Nukem''s due for some estrogen treatments (and he aint gonna like that... )



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Just waiting for the mothership...

How about breeding animals ie. Horse + Horse, Cat + Cat ? For instance in a world such as Ultima Online, should they actually show such things ?

What about outraged parents?

What about the Bloodhound Gang ?

A few thoughts.

Erotic games... Most of what I''ve seen has been just puzzle games. I get the impression I''m a little mouse looking for the piece of cheese.

Laura Croft... Don''t forget that Barbie was disproportionate for years before anyone cared. I also gotta wonder if an archiologist with her proportions in real life would ever be taken seriously. Sexy images thrown into games often get taken for what they are, just something that was thrown in to try to sell the game.

The hentai games I''ve played have pretty much amounted to reading a sexy story with pictures. A step up and in thre right direction, but I''d rather read a book. I''ve heard rumers of hentai games made for the NES and SNES platforms that are more like rpgs, enough sex to not want your kids to play, but thought out well enough not to insult your intelligence. But I have never seen them and even so it''d probably be in Japaneese. If I''m completly mistaken then that''s the sort of thing I''d like to see anyway.

I think sex doesn''t really have much place in first person shooters and action games like them and racing and other sports games. Why? Think for a sec... why are you playing these games anyways? If you don''t know the answer, then you shouldn''t be designing games. And if you''re a designer who asks why are most people going to want to play a game with sex heavilly as the theme, you''ll probably be find the answer to be similar to why people rent xxx movies and design the game with as much cookie cutter effort. After all it''ll make money, right?

I know that there are a few good heavilly sexually orientated movies and TV shows out there that aren''t mindless, and some of them make it onto the unscrambled stations on my TV. I''d love to see some games of the same caliber. You''d have to figure that such games would be highly relationship oriented in some way or another. I seem to remember a thread around here that said something about most games lacking that sort of thing and how it turns a lot of women off to computer games. Maybe that''s the starting point for producing something of some measure of quality.

Some sort of survivalist approach to a game''s theme might allow for integrating sex into a game with more ease. Something on a deserted island/planet/whatever or maybe a life on the mean streets sort of thing where the objective is to get rich but with your dignity in tact. I''d buy it if for no other reason than to see how good it is.

Just thinking out loud. Maybe I shouldn''t.

I personally think there is not enough of it.

Almost every game has violence, it''s the norm. But very few have any sex related content, or if they do, it''s very minimal.

Leisure suit larry just started to touch the tip of the iceburg of potential. It''s a pity that not many games have tried to further explore this realm of gaming posibility.

E.g. Imagine what a game based upon Austin Powers would be like?
Yea, baby yeah! FPS with silly death & fight sceens. Lots of strange camera views that leave the mind thinking Adult content!
Even the sex related sceens could be played out. Think of the babe that turns into a robot trying to kill AP. That could be quite an interesting combat/sex alternative.