Quote:Original post by Jannes
Did u play Morrowind or Dungeon Siege? U could view the progress on gaining a new skill point. The progressbar had to fill up to 100% to get a skill point. So its quite the same with "achievements" in this system.
I played both. Disliked Morrowind as I was able to do the bunny-hop-moving just to gain skills (be running and hopping all time).
Dungeon Siege on the other hand solved it in a good way I think.
Quote:Original post by Jannes
Wanted to add 3.) Such a system prevents from unrealistic level raising. For example: Why should a warrior always fighting enemies with weapons be able to raise lockpicking or magery if he didnt ever use it? very unrealistic i think. This is like a person waking up in the morning realising he learnt a foreign language while sleeping.
Dungeon Siege solves this by having 4 groups, where all actions fall in one of those groups and you raise levels in that group.
On the other hand you don't have "lockpicking" in a Action RPG like Dungeon Siege.
Just to present my solution for this problem:
You use levels to gain access to a skill (being able to use it at all), but then have to use the skill to become better with it.
Example:
Raise to level 5 to get lockpicking with 1%.
Use lockpicking to raise it from 1% to 100%.
Any cons on this solution?
-----The scheduled downtime is omitted cause of technical problems.
Quote:Original post by OmniBrain I played both. Disliked Morrowind as I was able to do the bunny-hop-moving just to gain skills (be running and hopping all time).
A way to solve this would be a more intense use of stamina for such an action. This would also apply to the running skill.
Quote:Original post by OmniBrain You use levels to gain access to a skill (being able to use it at all), but then have to use the skill to become better with it.
You could use npc skill trainers to get a base skillvalue.
I like the usage system, but it also takes away from the depth. Using skills has almost always been the manner in which experience is raised. Raising skills through the usage is kind of just taking that control away from the player.
In the real world, people practice to get better at activities. Usually, you don't practice your gun shooting skills by running gun-ho into a shoot out. Hell, you usually wouldn't want to come close to a gun fight until you've become very experienced with it.
This same tactic can be used in most point-gaining RPGs. You don't become a thief until your pick-locking skills are really decent. You use other traits while you "practice" your hidden abilities.
Doing the same thing over and over to gain experience also becomes very tedious. So I prefer the point spending method.
Quote:Original post by Jiia In the real world, people practice to get better at activities. Usually, you don't practice your gun shooting skills by running gun-ho into a shoot out. Hell, you usually wouldn't want to come close to a gun fight until you've become very experienced with it.
Great point on this! You wouldn't go out as a knight to slay enemies before your skills aren't really well trained (or your land is in high danger). Maybe a game should allow a character to spend some time on training yards to get skills up to a certain level before you go out and increase your skills in real combat.
(wooden puppets and a trainingmaster to learn combat styles, a training lock to learn lockpicking and so on)
-----The scheduled downtime is omitted cause of technical problems.
Quote:Original post by OmniBrain Disliked Morrowind as I was able to do the bunny-hop-moving just to gain skills (be running and hopping all time).
A simple solution to this is to not do it. But really, I don't see the problem here. By jumping around, you get better at jumping. Seems quite logical. As to gain skills by doing this, you have to do it a lot to raise a level in Acrobatics, and then do that 10 times to level up your character. But by levelling up using just Acrobatics you waste extra ability points because they are awarded based on what skills you used to level up with.
Quote:Original post by Jiia In the real world, people practice to get better at activities. Usually, you don't practice your gun shooting skills by running gun-ho into a shoot out. Hell, you usually wouldn't want to come close to a gun fight until you've become very experienced with it.
Great point on this! You wouldn't go out as a knight to slay enemies before your skills aren't really well trained (or your land is in high danger). Maybe a game should allow a character to spend some time on training yards to get skills up to a certain level before you go out and increase your skills in real combat.
(wooden puppets and a trainingmaster to learn combat styles, a training lock to learn lockpicking and so on)
Well thats exactly what is done in most (or all) RPGs. U train on puppets or some low level creatures like rats (which is the same as a dummy if u think about it).
I also think that running/jumping etc should have a higher fatigue rate to stop people bunny-hopping. The practice ground sounds like a good idea but, for an RPG, I would prefer a trainer (like Morrowind and Fallout). Maybe in multi-player this might be another player who has high lock-picking who teaches a new-player the 'lockpicking basics' for a price. If you get a REALLY high lock-pick skill you might be able to teach somebody intermediate lock-picking... at a higher price. This can be a quick way to access and learn a new skill which can then be augmented by using it in the game (in safer conditions at first).
In La Pucelle and Disgaea, they go a dual method to learning skills.
For example, in La Pucelle you need to equip enough items that build up an elemental level to enable the skill. Then, to keep it, you need to level from 0 to 1 by using the skill enough. Then, once you get it, you have to continue to use it to make it worth anything.
Disgaea, certain classes get Elemental skills via level, but the mentor of the magician can also learn the skills by standing adjacent to the magician. Then, 0 to 1 to learn it, and use it more to make it useful.
This is for attributes. For skills it could have more branches or a separate tree or trees.
When you gain Strength (from swinging a sword perhaps) you can increase Str by 7 points, Body by 3 points or Physical by 1 point. Your final Str score is the sum of all the nodes it passes through. Other algorithms could be used, like weighted averages.
One of the main down sides of learning by usage is that you can only learn skills you can perform (even if it's to fail). It's impossible to increase lock picking unless there are locks to pick, which makes sense logically but gameplay wise is annoying. Instead that part of the skill tree could be:
/Lock pickingMechanisms< \Repair
After repairing enough items to level up the stat, the player can decide whether to focus on Repair or generalise on all Mechanism skills. Generalising makes the Repair skill increase less but increases multiple related skills. In this example you still need repairable items or locks for the player to perform actions on, but it's more flexible than without the hierarchy.
The other feature of this system is it gives the player choices when levelling up, which I think is one of the plusses of point distribution systems.
I'm going to go ahead and post my own skills/attributes design here, let me know what you guys think!
Attributes
In this system, attributes represent the potential of a character. They do not represent knowledge/experience, but rather what a character is capable of. Therefore, attributes do not decay. An increase in attributes represents a significant accomplishment of the character, not skill gained from repetitive training.
Primary Attributes
These three attributes all begin at the value of 5, and they are used in general non-specific calculations. You could say that primary attributes are similar to 'levels' as they show the progression/overall power of a character.
- Physical. The health of a character, an ability to act with strength, stamina and dexterity. - Intelligence. The 'smarts' of a character, an ability to process information and make decisions, creativity. - Charisma. The social skills of a character, an ability to lead, hit-on girls, bargain, etc.
Secondary Attributes
Each primary attribute has three secondary attributes, all of which affect calculations for specific actions. For any primary attribute, the secondary attributes may be "moved around" through the use of time points. The total amount of secondary attributes is that of the primary attribute x3.
Physical - Strength. A character's muscle, affects calculations related to strength. - Dexterity. Agility, affects calculations related to quickness or control. - Endurance. Stamina, affects calculations related to fortitude and stamina.
Intelligence - Logic. Ability to process information and to remember, affects calculations related to complexity or thinking speed. - Wisdom. 'Common sense' from knowledge and experience, affects calculations related to instinct and complex logical connections. - Ingenuity. A character's creativity, affects calculations related to the creation of new things.
Charisma - Amiability. How much people like a character, affects calculations related to social skill. - Leadership. An ability to lead, affects calculations related to the command of others. - Willpower. A character's will and determination, affects calculations related to perseverance in difficult situations.
Secondary Attribute Relations
At any time, a secondary attribute can not surpass another secondary attribute under the same primary group with over 100%
Skills and Titles
Skills represent the accumulated knowledge and experience of a character. Skills may be trained easily and may also be lost.
The Nature of Skills
A skill is a percentage based statistic which plays a primary role in almost all actions committed by a player. Skills start off with 50% ratings, representing a period of 'learning of the basics' as a player trains a skill to 100%. After 100% the learning curve begins to grow steep, and the character is granted a % based bonus (skill - 100%) on all actions related to that skill. The equation for calculation action bonus is:
Where total skill_weight[x] = 1 and %s are rounded up.
Skill Decay
Even brain surgeons will lose skill if they don't stay in practice, if a character does not use a skill for 40 hours, then that skill will decay 1% every 8 hours, to a maximum of 10% less than the value before any decay. Retraining skill decay happens at a 250% rate.
Training Skills
To train a skill, a character must use a related action successfully, and he/she will gain a number of skill points (specific to individual skills) based on the complexity of the action and the weight of the skill in the action. Upon acquiring a certain amount of skill points, the character is granted a 1% advancement in that skill.
The Tier System
The number of skill points required to gain a 1% advancement is governed by a tier system in which each tier represents a 100% range and raises the required number of skill points exponentially. The equation for required skill points is:
(Skill Rating / 25) ^ (Tier Level)
Where the remainder is ignored in the skill rating calculation, and tier levels are structured as follows:
Tier 0: 50%-99% Tier 1: 100%-199% Tier 2: 200%-299% Etc.
Tier 0 Failure
As a skill is trained from its starting value of 50%, actions which depend on this skill (regardless of its weight) may fail with a probability equivalent to 100% - the value of the skill.
Skill Availability
All characters start off with many basic skills. To unlock more skills, a character must 1) Find 'master' NPCs and pay a fee to obtain a skill 2) Get taught by other players 3) Achieve titles. Unlocking a skill starts it off at 50%.
Titles
There are no 'classes', only 'titles'. Titles are gained by achieving certain %s in certain skills (ex. To become a swordsman you must achieve 150% sword skill and 150% parry skill). The acquirement of a title can grant a character a variety of bonuses depending on the type of title. These bonuses including but are not limited to: weapon bonuses, permanent primary/secondary attribute points, social influence with NPCs, new unlocked skills etc. Titles are things that a player wears proudly.
- Title types. There are many types of titles in addition to skill titles, all of which influence the character in different ways. - Class titles. These titles represent a specialization of the character, granting them bonuses in calculations with certain actions, and possibly a secondary attribute. - Master titles. These are like class titles, except they grant a permanent primary attribute bonus as well. - Organization/membership titles. Joining a certain clan/guild/band/corporation/city/nation/etc. grants the bonuses given to members by the specific organization. Many NPC organizations grant additional titles based on skill and affiliation ratings. - Political titles. These titles are granted to governors, generals, etc. and grant very specific abilities to players that allow them to have more control over NPCs, ability to control domestic affairs, diplomacy power, etc.
