quote: Original post by Whirlwind

I think that they should do the story, then decide on the engine and the art, including the art style. I never saw any sense in someone picking an art style and then trying to justify the art decision through writing the story. If you are hard up for a game idea, choosing an art style might help, but that is only when you have nothing to start with and with cultural based art styles that have established techniques for an existing medium.

I think that they should be co-designed. I mean, you may develop a great storyline, then try to implement it in code, and find that your ideas are impossible (or just not worth the time/effort you would spend on them). Likewise, you might design a great engine, and then decide that part of the engine''s functionality are not used or don''t cover what you want done when consulting the story script.

This, of course, is probably more difficult when you have a large team of designers/developers, who might chafe at the idea of working on the same pot of soup at the same time.




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Okay here''s my previous post with soem more comments...

-Idea of the Game/Plot/Story.
Here, you decide of the game style, plot and general story.

-Writing the Story/Designing the game.
Now, you begin to write the story and design the game from what you want to make the player feel.

-Designing the engine to be used.
Now, the engine is designed, IF they are imposible things to do, they''ll be reported in the next step.

-Polishing the designs.
It''s here that people will modify the Design, because of problem in the previous one.

-Beginning to code (and modifying slightly the design)
Here is the beginning of coding/crafting, level designing, art making...


As you can see, IF they are some problem, they are reported BEFORE any coding.
This is to avoid major rewrite or modifications that will make the code slower/harder/trickier...

This is just A model, not the model to follow.
I can understand that people are willing to show/prove their interest in their project by showing something, but that''s not the best thing to do, at least if you want to let some freedom to the people joining your game project.

Everything is IMHO.

-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-

weird... i thiked that was the inverse, there a lot of people that don´t know how programm and making game designs, and there a lot of guys asking " hey , i got this great idea for a game. someone can code it for me?"

i really want to know someone that wants to only code a game, if you know someone call me

So. i was there in the middle of a lot of witches and mages, when she come to me:
-You are too young to be a mage.
-No, i´m not a mage, i´m a programmer.
-How! Sorry... what a bad luck.
-Yeah... Don´t even talk about it...

An idea is not a design
If it was a DECENT design people would flock to program it, but sadly, most of the help wanted posts are just ideas, not designs.


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"I definitely think that what we do here is change the opinions. We are the ones who are making the reality bright for future designers. Game design and story writing is an art. Coding without taking that into account is just hacking. Personally, I think that a story should be thoroughly developed before production of code is even considered"

Now this is an enlightened viewpoint. Not. I call developing a story without engineering wishful thinking.

I disagree. The story is in no way limited by technology, only the interactivity and presentation of it. At the very basic level, you could just have a text file with the story. Granted, that''s not a game, but it''s a start.
There are some interoperations, but if you start with a solid story, it can be tweaked to fit the options for interactivity that your engineering allows, or you can tweak your engineering to allow the interactivity that your story demands. It''s the latter that has been overlooked too many times. Decent enough story, but the level of interactivity is limited to "kill enough baddies and you get to see the whole story in the end sequence."


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I agree with MadKeithV, and not because he''s a Moderator

Being both a (woulbe?) designer and coder, I often found solution to the problems.

Story is not design.
design is much more than a single story.
in fact a good design doc is really hard to write down, I think that''s why the designer is available during all the process



-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-

Well I''m a writer, a coder, and a software engineer, so I get the worst of all worlds .
It''s very hard to separate design from implementation sometimes. That can be bad, or it can be good, it depends on how you are at handling it. In games, design is a lot more than getting the right classes to work together, the overall idea of the game has to work as well, and the engine has to work with the story ( and vice versa ).
It''s all equally important.


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Well, I am a Computer Engineer and Software Engineer Undergraduate. I know the trials and tribulations of programming. I am also a literary person. I enjoy writing and I am trying to Major in an English/Literature subject. Design is first and formost in the programming process. If you have an idea, you need to design it and then you may develop it from there. You cannot code your engine first without having some idea of what you want to use it for. Story-art needs to be taken into account in the design phase. Can you design an engine to tell the specific story that you want without this?

Anon: You are obviously either not involved in any design, and neither should you be with your attitude. Design without story = disaster. Imagine having to recode your engine because you left out a little detail that was crucial in the telling of the story? How stupid would you feel about distrusting stories then?

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quote: Original post by dwarfsoft

Design without story = disaster. Imagine having to recode your engine because you left out a little detail that was crucial in the telling of the story? How stupid would you feel about distrusting stories then?

I''m sorry, but this is just not true. At the risk of turning this thread into a credentials pissing contest, I''ve worked in the game industry for a 5+ years at big and small houses. I''ve seen designs with no story WHATSOEVER greenlighted and put into production. I read that Total Annihilation, a legendary RTS, was cooked up during a dinner between Ron Gilbert and Chris Taylor with no story in mind WHATSOEVER, just a nice fledgeling engine. Can you honestly tell me TA''s sales were crippled by having the lame a$$ Arm vs. Core storyline (explained in a flimsy manual and a few voice overs and mission briefings)?

There are certain genres which benefit from story. RPGs and adventure games almost require them. First person shooters can take them or leave them (Exhibit A: Unreal Tournament). Puzzle games, arcade games, flight sims, sports games all do not need story.

Story is not design. Design is not story. They''re intertwined in some cases, but always separate.





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