So...I was sitting there playing SNES''s version of Shadowrun when it occured to me..not really occured to me, but common sense slapped me a little. Basics: CRPG: Computer RPG. Every CRPG has a goal, This in a sense makes it linear sense to make a story some event must occur before others. non-linear games are still linear by making certain tasks impossible before others. This is the same for P&P games. overall, this is what makes a CRPG, and a good story makes it all worth while. MMORPG is, or SHOULD be about making that experience better. How? 1) Friends can join in on the adventure and do certain actions with you. Instead of choosing actions for your team mates, let them choose. Again, much like P&P. 2) Brag. In my day, the best thing was going to school and saying I found the wave beam in Metroid, or I finished Zork X. MMORPGs allow this bragging, and comumity help experience. Can''t find weapon X? Go to a pub and talk about it. What MMORPGs are getting wrong: 1) Worrying about making a ''realistic'' and continuous world. They worry so much about making everything real, they have stupid static dungeons that don''t progress any story or character development..this is in actuality anti-RPG. At the same time they stop players from having any real impact, even on their OWN character development in the gaming world. how does conquering a dungeon help you out if you only get Exp? 2) Unrealistic worlds. Meanwhile they make the world more unrealistic by this spontaneously generated dungeons that have very little to do with the world. My answer... Have one or more linear paths in the world you can follow. Some paths require friends, others you can do solo. either way, you can go to town, get friends, share tips, weapons, challenge for goods,...but in the end, have a goal. Because MMORPGs are a service at heart, you can have multiple goals which cause ''replay'' value, and continual service. In a sense, this is what Diablo does, but since it is built upon a static game, you can not get the dynamic feal that MMORPGs game bring, which is in-game community. What do you think?

What do I think of what? Yes, all games a liner. (?)

Maybe in Australia you don''t have this saying.
"What do you think?" is a question asking your oppinion over what was just stated. In the previous paragraphs I was describing that linear stories (plural) Should be added to MMORPGs. This has been avoided in all that are out there becuase of one reason or another, and generally replaced by short missions that do not progress any story or character development.

I was wondering if people think adding long linear stories that can be finished into a MMORPG is viable, and how they would feel it would fit into thost types of games.

I have thought about this before. MMORPG has no goal. You play only to make your characters uber, nothing else. Once you have a level-100 character, you start another one, rinse and repeat. If you play an MMORPG, you occasionally bump up with some dude who has 5 high-level characters and now working on his sixth character. IMO, this what makes MMORPG games dry. In single-player CRPG, you have character development, story, unique secret weapons, and other things that make the game rich of contents.

Some guy here said that MMORPG is all about simulation. Just like the sims game. You have no goal, you just need to survive. I think the reason why MMORPG is a simulation in the first place is caused by a false design. Whatever game that starts MMORPG (EverQuest?) has that simulation design instead of RPG, then the rest of population is following that design.

the problem is that in a single-player RPG, there is only one hero (or maybe a party, but it still boils down to one group) doing all the good stuff. no matter how well you design the game, you still can''t have everyone save the world (or whatever other goal there is). this leaves two options for the designer:
(1) make large, world-changing quests that only one out of thousands of players will be able to complete (which is a waste of time as it will only benefit a very small percentage of the players)
(2) make quests that everyone is going to do (which makes them generic and boring).

phantasy star online???

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

quote: Original post by alnite
I have thought about this before. MMORPG has no goal. You play only to make your characters uber, nothing else. Once you have a level-100 character, you start another one, rinse and repeat. If you play an MMORPG, you occasionally bump up with some dude who has 5 high-level characters and now working on his sixth character. IMO, this what makes MMORPG games dry. In single-player CRPG, you have character development, story, unique secret weapons, and other things that make the game rich of contents.

Some guy here said that MMORPG is all about simulation. Just like the sims game. You have no goal, you just need to survive. I think the reason why MMORPG is a simulation in the first place is caused by a false design. Whatever game that starts MMORPG (EverQuest?) has that simulation design instead of RPG, then the rest of population is following that design.

I would say that would account for 15% of the MMORPG experience.. First of all a big part of it is being free to explore at your pace, wherever you want and whenever you want(as long as you can survive). But I would say the main reason for someone to level up and get uber isn''t to simply get uber it is to take their uber character and see how well they do fighting another uber character, or forming a clan and taking PVP to a group scale.. It is all about the other players that make an MMORPG worth playing.. sitting around slashing and hacking at mobs is only a small fraction of the fun that can come out of a good MMORPG

The MMORPG concept origanaly harolded the idea that the game would create its own history. Theoreticaly this is a great idea, but if you get down to the social aspects of it, its not. You see, humans operate on a complex of goals and rewards, of choices and consequences. Since we actualy have little feasable to grant the user, it removes an aspect of the game. You could make the game much more enjoyable by offering them viewable (braggable) objects for "winning", but then you would have to make it an 18+ game, canceling more then half of your user base.

One work around for this I sort of stole off an old FF game for the origanal GameBoy. Final Fantasy Legands 2 I believe. They had a number of "Magi", which were scattered around the world, and many times possessed by various people. Put a concept like that, or true rare artifacts into the game. These artitifacts have to be extreemly rare, but new ones may spawn in select unxplored areas. These artifacts shouold offer the player something additional in the game other then a simple stat boost. Such as the command of a kingdom or major ancient guild, the control of an army of demons, the ability to literaly teleport anywhere at any time. Sometimes even just a symbol of respect or a moderate price decrease at shops. The abilities granted should be little in standard battles. You then simply offer a way to "challange" the owner of the artifact to a dual, one where he must oblige (of course, there must be a downside to losing such a challange aswell). What this element will do, is offer something to truly brag about, and to offer a continuing challange to hold onto such an item (it can force you into duals, exc.)

quote: Original post by krez
the problem is that in a single-player RPG, there is only one hero (or maybe a party, but it still boils down to one group) doing all the good stuff. no matter how well you design the game, you still can''t have everyone save the world (or whatever other goal there is). this leaves two options for the designer:
(1) make large, world-changing quests that only one out of thousands of players will be able to complete (which is a waste of time as it will only benefit a very small percentage of the players)
(2) make quests that everyone is going to do (which makes them generic and boring).

This is what my point is against. Why do you think it is bad to have ''quests everyone can do''
AND ''large world-chaging''? It''s a game. Make the world chaging parts in your player''s eyes
only if you have to. Have different ''shards'' that are in a different state depending on
your story success. have the ability to ''wish'' things back the way they were to transport
back to another server/shard/state.

How bad would it be if you walked into a bar after defeating Story-1''s final boss (ex. Magmo).
"Wow, I finally beat story one solo, and I am thinking of doing story 5!"
Sure, many other at the bar have done story 1 also, defeating Magmo, but you now have
many things in common, including the loot. Let''s all try and do story 5 together!

quote: Original post by Unconnected


I would say that would account for 15% of the MMORPG experience.. First of all a big part of it is being free to explore at your pace, wherever you want and whenever you want(as long as you can survive). But I would say the main reason for someone to level up and get uber isn''t to simply get uber it is to take their uber character and see how well they do fighting another uber character, or forming a clan and taking PVP to a group scale.. It is all about the other players that make an MMORPG worth playing.. sitting around slashing and hacking at mobs is only a small fraction of the fun that can come out of a good MMORPG

By NOT having an in game full story to complete, you only leave PVP as an option.
What sucks is PVP is an ''option'', and will never be enforced again after UO caved in.
For those that don''t like it, you are left with nothing.

quote: Original post by PaulCesar
The MMORPG concept origanaly harolded the idea that the game would create its own history. Theoreticaly this is a great idea, but if you get down to the social aspects of it, its not. You see, humans operate on a complex of goals and rewards, of choices and consequences. Since we actualy have little feasable to grant the user, it removes an aspect of the game. You could make the game much more enjoyable by offering them viewable (braggable) objects for "winning", but then you would have to make it an 18+ game, canceling more then half of your user base.

I think part of the bragging rights is just finishing the stories/quests. When the quests are short, like they
are now in MMORPGS, there is not much room for bragging. In fact, the only bragging I see is when they defeat
a random gen NPC because they grinded to level X. Seeing through long thought out stories is a good goal.
SWG offers some pretty big quest sequencies (theme parks) and people never brag about them. Why?
The results were not hard to complete, the parts are loosly coupled, and impact is minimal.


Overall, I don''t see any problems of a world you can log into, and solo/group complete stories that
take X hours to complete, even if you know others are doing the same thing. The best part is you
can do them solo (by leveling up, or doing other stories first), or do them in groups (becuase
it''s an MMORPG). Then you can brag and exchange items because, once again, it''s an MMORPG.

I am curious how people here would view a game where every player can do that. Log in, and
start working on a 10 hour story that takes your across the world, but know that others are doing the same
thing. At times you will see them traveling. Perhaps dungeons will spawn solo, as Anarchy Online
does, so you don''t meet anyone. However, while resting you can still travel to major
towns and meet others, buy custom armor and goods, trade and team up.

IMHO, MMORPG are all going in wrong direction except Lineage or simular games.

RPG game concept is designed to be played in solo or small group of players, who plays vs Computer. When you make it MMO it is wrong just to make regular RPG game to support massive amount of players. MMO should be a game that is group of players vs other group of players, designers should concentrate on group goals not only solo quests.

For example you are a citizen of city A and near your city there is a big iron mine every week this mine can be captured the capturer city will be able to use mine for whole week. Then another city B near by can capture this mine. Mine will lower all cost for any metal items in your city only for citizens of that city.

That came from simple capture the flag idea.

Now you can do MANY different group things like that to make game more enjoyable.

Sorry for my english. It isnt my native language.