From a design standpoint, it makes sense. If you have ten classes with ten skills each, it''s easier to balance those ten skills to make a viable character than it is to try to design 100 skills such that any feasible combination leaves the game playable.

I think Fallout did this perfectly.

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Original post by BoZo_
I think Fallout did this perfectly.

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Not perfectly, but very well, better than most class systems IMO.

In general, I think classes are an artificial constraint. Use them if you need to, but it's better if they can be avoided.

As suggested, classes could arise naturally. And indeed, they do. In Fallout, you can be a sniper, a brawler, a thief, a smooth-talker and so on. There just aren't any in-game names for these classes. You can also be a jack of all trades, something most class systems can't provide.

But, as noted, problems arise. Some bad combinations leave the game practically unplayable, like Intelligence 1, Charisma 1 and putting all skill points into non-combat skills.

The question is, how much responsibility should we put in the player's hands? If he finds himself in a tight spot, will he chalk it up and start over, or will he blame the developers and quit?

The solution could be to use a class-like system for beginners, and leave advanced customization to experienced players.

[edited by - EasyRaider on May 2, 2004 8:55:00 AM]

Nobody''s dumb enough to have such weak stats and uncomplimentary skills, though. I guess if you set yourself up as a professional healer, there wouldn''t be much for you to do, but it''s not likely that anyone will make that mistake.

Although, to be fair, I find myself building characters with the game in mind. I''ll think, "well, I want to get through the military base with stealth, so I''ll jack my perception and agility, and since I know the power armor will boost my strength I''ll be cheap with that. I can go to the library and max out my small guns skill, so I don''t need to tag that one..." That is a little cheap. I think my first character was pretty weak, all things considered.

But something I really liked about that game was the fact that you weren''t always identified as a sniper, or a brawler. Nobody would say, "Hey, None, you''re a thief, how about you help me spy on Gizmo?" You can go into a bar, and have a nuka-cola, and nobody knows that you''re a master with energy weapons and an initiate in the Brotherhood of Steel unless they start a fight, in which case you fry them with Vree''s latest laser pistol design. That was a fun dynamic. In a class system, people can evaluate your strengths, weaknesses and general function with a glance. I''d like to be able to conceal that if I want to. Maybe I could wear a uniform or characteristic outfit if I wanted to be recognized as a specific type of professional, but it wouldn''t be required.

Well, I can''t speak from a balance standpoint, since that sort of stuff can get hard if you don''t want to resort to exponential growth requirements.

However, how about just making Classes a reward title. For example, the Wizard''s Guild will teach base level magic skills to any player, and then award the Mage title to anyone that reaches a set of prerequisits. Then, the Wizard''s Guild has som more high level magic skills that it will only teach to recognized Mages. Complete requirements there and you''ll be given the Wizard Title. The Templar Guild will only let you in if you have titles in the Knight and Wizards guild. That way, you don''t choose upfront what you want to be, but rather are pushed into learning about what there is, and then aspiring to the given classes.

That would be good. Make it a system of certifications. This could impose limits on the degree of specialization you could have. For instance, if you want to be a head of the Merchants'' guild and a leader of the Thieves'' Circle and Captain of the Constabulary, it''ll be a tough job. In fact, some of them would probably preclude others. Would the Seminary admit a thief/gambler/brewer without him first abandoning his old roles and renouncing his certifications? Maybe not.

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Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
Nobody''s dumb enough to have such weak stats and uncomplimentary skills, though. I guess if you set yourself up as a professional healer, there wouldn''t be much for you to do, but it''s not likely that anyone will make that mistake.

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Original post by Wavinator
Happened to me once, btw, in Diablo when I thought I could play a pure rogue, no magic. Thinking they wouldn''t have given me the option for no reason, I maxed up on everything but magic and got to a level where lightning throwers killed me instantly every time I went to the level. With no points in magic I didn''t qualify for even the wimpiest magical armor. I had to quit the game.

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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
-- Albert Einstein

"Nobody's dumb enough to..." is always a risky assumption. More often than not, somebody is dumb enough.

Optimally, the game should be winnable with any valid combination of stats/skills/abilities. If enough players assume this to be true for your game, but it isn't, then you have a problem.

But I wouldn't worry about it. Just offer some good pre-built characters, and make sure that the player knows about it if he needs to put points into something specific. The Diablo designers obviously made a bad call.

[edited by - EasyRaider on May 2, 2004 2:54:31 PM]

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Original post by Inmate2993
However, how about just making Classes a reward title. For example, the Wizard's Guild will teach base level magic skills to any player, and then award the Mage title to anyone that reaches a set of prerequisits. Then, the Wizard's Guild has som more high level magic skills that it will only teach to recognized Mages. Complete requirements there and you'll be given the Wizard Title. The Templar Guild will only let you in if you have titles in the Knight and Wizards guild. That way, you don't choose upfront what you want to be, but rather are pushed into learning about what there is, and then aspiring to the given classes.

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I like this system. But I really think there should be more ways to learn things than being taught by guilds. I think the game would feel a bit too artificially constrained otherwise. Although it would be OK for certain skills to only be available from a particular guild.

On another note, I generally don't like typical fantasy settings. While hardcore RPG players can immediately identify with them, the general populace can't. There is a reason why so few movies deal with elves and magic. It's not that people don't know what a wizard is, they just want something closer to the real world (or their perception of it), something familiar, only with more entertaining events than in their daily lives. Or something

But, if your target demographic mainly consists of experienced gamers, just disregard the last paragraph.

[edited by - EasyRaider on May 2, 2004 3:22:54 PM]

Oh yeah, of course, some skills can and should come from anywhere. Like, it can just be assumed that any player can throw a knife, but only professionally trained would be any good at it.