Been playing the Croc demo for PC. It''s a qute game. The only thing that is frustrating is that the game takes away your life each time you miss a jump between floating platforms and fall into void. What do you guys think about this whole jumping in 3D idea? I remember when n64 came out there was some outcry against jumping in 3D. Have folks got used to jumping? I ask because this is the only problem I have with the game. It''s very difficult to judge how far or near to the platform I''m and if it weren''t for the character''s shadow I would miss the jumps a whole lot more. One of my solutions would be to always space the platforms so that you always use one jumping distance. This way you always land on a platform and you wouldn''t fly past it or be short of it. In a 2D game I could tell whether I''m past or too short of a platform and could time it in mid flight to land on the platform just right. I loose this side view in 3D game. Especially since the shadow is going into the void during the jump. So I can''t see how far in/out I''ve moved. Only when I''m above the small platform I''m able to see the shadow and can change the jump but then it''s too late most of the time because of the short platforms. The ice level in the demo is fun. I like how you can slide down the hills and do funky stuff with that. That could be a skill learner but this jumping is more of a luck then anything.

The difficulty of jumping in 3D hasn't ever really bothered me (well OK it's caused many an outburst of frustration on my part) but with no lasting ill feelings toward 3D jumping... Most platform games these days seem to give you unlimited lives and use a checkpoint system, so as difficult as a jump may be, you can keep attempting it.

That said some games (by which I mean Jak 2) were just too difficult in places, and the checkpoints so far apart the game became monotonous. I did finish it, but I found the game to be a big dissapointment after Jak & Daxter (aka A game that is actually fun).

[edited by - botman2 on April 30, 2004 4:11:22 AM]

It isn''t the jumping that is the problem but the "death by void" - it is bad game design. If you miss a jump you should fall a short way, take damage and be able to try again. Death is a very extreme punishment for such a simple mistake.

Dan Marchant
Obscure Productions (www.obscure.co.uk)
Game Development & Design consultant

When I got my N64, I was briefly infuriated by the little deaths that awaited me in the depths of Super Mario 64. But that game had such superb controls, such intuitive camera angles, and such high-quality level design that I picked up on the jumping in short order and was a flipping, diving, twirling dervish of aerobatic magnificence within a half hour''s time. Good game design can make bottomless pits less than scary. It''s still exciting knowing that they''re around, but Mario almost never falls in them, because he''s so athletic and the N64 controller is so precise. I love that game.

So bottomless pits aren''t a problem if your game is halfway playable. Good tight arcade controls make jets of fire child''s play, and if the moves are simple and effective, even the highest stakes just add to the fun. Anyone can get through Super Mario 64 if they take their time. I die regularly, though, from trying to hot-dog through the Bowser levels, or collecting every last coin in the map. That''s good game design. Death by pit in that game isn''t an extreme punishment for a simple error; it''s an extreme punishment for hubris, and the stakes get higher the fancier you try to be. It''s like automatically scalable difficulty. It can be an easy, even boring game, but with a little testosterone injection, it becomes a high-risk thrillfest. Wow. I''ve got to play that game again sometime.

mario 64.... i''m still playing the game only for the joy of controlling mario, now i'' don''t have to ''see'' what i''m doing since i have memorise the space, making the sense of ''flow'' and ''control'' highly felt

but we are talking of mario 64, the game had 16 different type of jump had the controller had been specially made for the game, playing such a game on pc is not wise since control sucks for this kind of game in 3D

zelda 64 had some platform passage they manage correctly by autojumping, this did not remove the chalenging and it''s surprisingly good and intuitive but allow less complex pattern of move,

another things is the perspective use, in many 3D game i have play, i have seen that a top down perspective is the best view to judge distance, mario had such a camera of course, if the camera is too paralel to the horizon distance became difficult to judge, you know the camera is top down at some extant when the horizon line is high or not on the screen
another example is jumping flash which use a firts person view (then a camera which had a paralel view to horizon), while jumping the character automatically look down to see where you will land, it''s a trick which is commonly use now whether the view the game use, while jumping the camera look down to enhance distance...

however without analogic control, platform remain very hard in 3D

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I think Mario 64 is getting a lot more credit here than it deserves

I think you smell!

I don''t mind jumping from platform to platform. That is the whole challenge: to determine the distance between your current position to the next platform. It is like shooting a three pointer in basketball. As frustration it could be potentially it could also be a beneficiary(if that is a word) challenge.

Jehovah is viewed by Gnostics as fundamentally evil, jealous, rigid, lacking in compassion and prone to genocide.

quote: Original post by dgaf
I think Mario 64 is getting a lot more credit here than it deserves

What deserves the credit then? Isn''t not giving Mario 64 credit in a conversation about 3D platformer''s like not giving Doom any credit in a conversation about first person shooters? Even if you don''t like the game you need to acknowledge its importance.

Great replies. I enjoyed reading them and it made me realize I''m not the only one frustrated. That auto jumping and overhead/horizon camera trick those are things I haven''t thought about so thanks for that. I don''t mind the jumping part it''s just that after going thru several levels I then die during a single jump and have to go back to beginning of game. I suppose those extra save points and possibly having multiple jumping paths in the game(one easy one, one harder one) would be ok too.