i have been thinking a lot lately, there are a lot of games (rpgs, specifically) that use elemental forces as either plot devices, or weapons. I have star here for a while, and two things came to mind that really bug me when it comes right down to it... 1) Almost every game that I have heard of or played involved the four greek elements: earth, wind, fire, water. 2) In every said game, the way said elements were incorperated in the game usually follows something like this: -- The game starts where you a (relatively young, generic) sorcerer and father-like mentor are just having a chat when *oh no* you turn around, just to see your former best friend''s brother''s son''s girlfriend''s father stealing the 4 ELEMENTAL DISKS! NOOO!!!1 And then kills your master. damn. you are then charged with the quest of locating said disks, now scattered across the world hidden in dungeons and caves. If you don''t the world ends. -- Yeah, I did overdo it a bit, but do you get my point? Its just something I would like to remind game developers about, so they in turn do not make these mistakes. If you are, in fact, planning on such game, I do have a couple solutions.. Do something more original than the 4 greek elements. Other cultures in the world did wonder what stuff was made of. One idea could be using 8: the four main (earth, fire, wind, water) and intermediates (earth + fire = lava, earth + water = clay, water + wind = mist, wind + fire = lightning) maybe even throw in a couple new ones like light/dark, cosmos maybe? and please, PLEASE, incorperate this concept in more ways than spells and weapons. Those who can command their respective elements could use them to solve puzzles as well.. Hm, just some observations on my part. Happy programming!

The thing is, the most popular "magickal" systems in the world are assiciated with the five Aristotelian elements. Quintessence is seldom used, since it''s unavailable on Earth and cannot be manufactured (that was the "Great Work" of alchemists; the philosopher''s stone that could turn lead to gold was just a step in the process). Wicca is probably the most popular form now, and it uses the Paracelsian elements in conjuction with astrology to structure its metaphysical events.

The fact of the matter is, it''s far easier to steal an old magical system than to build your own. A lot of people, especially here, have been toying with syntactic systems, which use a series of runes or characters to structure the magical effects. Other systems include the "Jedi" systems of psionic powers. These are best described by Robert A. Heinlein in "Lost Legacy". Similar concepts, like the epiphenomenal powers that arise from diligent study of martial arts, are common in China (Sun Wukong) and Japan (Dragonball).

Yes, there are unoriginal systems out there. But there are variants and even original systems, too. Final Fantasy uses a fire/water/ice/lightning system, though water is pretty new, and in some of them they offer the full range of earth/air/fire/water/lightning/dark/holy/ice/pestilence/whatever else was in there, and they all had different relationships and such. Magic: The Gathering has a five-point system, with a more sophisticated affinity system incorporated into it.

Don''t overreact. The point is that an easy to understand system is a boon to both designer and player, and if you want to fancy it up you''ll have to spend some time teaching the player how it works.

I love the 4 tiered elemental magic system, personally. If I had my way it would be in any game I was involved with. But my view on it is somewhat of a new twist (as far as I know). Think not of what, specifically, the element is, but how you could describe it. By this I have realized that the similarity between Earth Water Wind and Fire is parallel to the ideas of states, i.e. Solid Liquid Vapour and Energy (or plasma or whatever).

O don''t know about all of you, but I think this analogy is much more appropriate for a magic system than the archetype of the 4 elements. It sort of brings the theory back into modern times, since we know that nothing is simply a combination of earth wind water and fire, but can be represented by cominations of the states, solid liquid vapour and energy.

As ever, just my $0.02,
**Cosmic**

The whole point of the alchemical elements being used is that it hearkens back to a time when the metaphysical model of the universe was a magical one. If you try to apply those principles to modern ideas of what constitutes matter, you''ll be in conflict withthings like inertia, electromagnetism, thermodynamics and conservation of energy, which are components of the same theories from which you derived your system.

If you''re going that route, I advise technomancy. Just make it a technology that''s so advanced it''s indistinguishable from magic. Make a nanocomputer and micro fusion energy cell that fit inside a crystaline bainite frame paned with refractive sapphires that can generate and project bolts of plasma by stripping electrons off of hydrogen that''s electrolyzed by water, and you''ve got a blue sapphire gem that shoots fireballs and is recharged by rain.

I am working on a game that extends the 4 elements to 7 "elements" that are more related to science rather than magic (the game does not have magic). The forces or elements include fire, water, earth, and sky (wind) plus light, sound, and magnetism (time is a possible eighth). All seven of these forces have been studied for thousands of years.

Also if you want to do something different try using the old medicine of humours or essences: blood, phlegm, yellow bile, black bile as having mystical properties. This is a little deceiving because the 4 humours are related to the four elements. Or (if the game is FFX2esque) use the mystical properties of flowers.

None of these are original I admit.

On a similar vein to what has already been said... it comes down to complexity alot of the time. Players already know you use water to put out a fire; if they see a fire elemental they will cast a water spell on it and expect to cause lots of mayhem. They may also cast blizzard on it, if you''re using ice to represent the water element.

If you want opposing elements, you need to either indicate the relationships very clearly, or make them very obvious. If water opposes earth, make sure it''s taught clearly and make a big deal of it. Most people don''t think of dumping water on a rock to get rid of it, even though your theory of erosive force makes perfect sense to you.

And looking at the original examples... does mist oppose lava? On a diagram it would. Does the player know this? Does it make sense? That''s all up to you. If the player is accurately instructed to cast ''Dense Fog'' on the ''Lava Titan'', allowing him to defeat the brute, he will probably remember the relation. It might be prudent to also explain why ordinary water wouldn''t have worked (or make sure that it does...). Almost any element system could work, but the matter will be confused if it isn''t explained early and explained well.

When I played Final Fantasy X, this was one of the problems I had. Fire vs Blizzard made sense, but Lightning vs Water? The game didn''t illustrate the point particularly well, and it doesn''t make sense to my conventional wisdom, so I repeatedly used fire against water when I should have used lightning. It was just a matter of me thinking "The monster is water element; which of the other three elements would cause the most damage to it?", and without a strong in-game logic to tell me lightning, I defaulted to fire. I learned it by the end of the game, but was frustrated more than once by it before then.

Read, for example, the Mage RPG from White Wolf for an interesting and diverse set of alternatives to the straight Hermetic magic. You have the Druidic blood magic tradition, oriental dharma/karma, Indian/Cajun-inspired voodoo/death magic, mad scientist-as-magician, cybermagic, dream magic, religion & faith as magic, etc. That game really helped me step outside my own head in terms of what a magic system should and shouldn''t be; primarily, i think, a magic system should give a certain freedom from the "normal" laws of the universe.

ld

Going back to my old table-top RPG''ing days, I prefer the concept of schools of magic(k) over elements or types. Illusion, Invocation, Necromancy, Evocation, to name a few; I later modified them to add Alchemy, Geomancy, Technomancy and others.

I also considered religion to be an Ecclesiastical school, or Divinity.

Having named the various schools, I gave each one several ways of "casting" - whether it be vocal, somatic, or sympathetic/spirit, and gave each school a different psychological/philosophical approach to magic, its role in the universe, and the spell-caster''s responsibility in using their power.

Going with previous statements: the Earth/Air/Fire/Water, and variants thereof, are worldwide universal "elements" (you can add things like Metal, Lightning, Spirit, Mind, etc. for flavor) and, given the vast research already existing on existing beliefs based on those elements it makes designing a magic system much simpler. Almost every early culture used them, and nearly every mythological/religious/magical belief system used some variant of them.

quote: Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
If you''re going that route, I advise technomancy. Just make it a technology that''s so advanced it''s indistinguishable from magic. Make a nanocomputer and micro fusion energy cell that fit inside a crystaline bainite frame paned with refractive sapphires that can generate and project bolts of plasma by stripping electrons off of hydrogen that''s electrolyzed by water, and you''ve got a blue sapphire gem that shoots fireballs and is recharged by rain.

Oh yeah.

Just remember that there are a lot of modern metaphysical models that are considered jokes by real scientists. Ether, Free Energy, Orgone Accumulators. Bear in mind, even Einstein agreed that there had to be a fundamental energy field that permeated the universe.

I think a big question here is what do you want the elements to actually do. As is, elements simply means a component. It''s all very well to know what makes up something, but why should the players care. The scientic elements make up plenty of things, but not all that many people care what all 120+ elements are.

You could very well use the aristolean model. But did you know that wouldn''t really give you earth, air, fire, and water? Aristotle assumes 2 sets of qualities Hot/Cold and Dry/Wet. Note, Dry seems to be used synominously w/ rigid and Wet with fluid. In any case, he believed that combining 2 qualities would make purified essenses. The essences were then connected to the classic 4 elements. Fire = Hot + Dry, Air = Hot + Wet, Water = Cold + Wet, and Earth = Cold + Dry. Furthermore, he stated that combining opposing elements might allow the other opposing pair to be created. So combining fire and water would yeild earth (ashes) and air (steam). Similiarly, combining earth and air should yeild fire and water.
As you can see, this is a bit more complicated than just presenting 4 elements, but how would you introduce it to the game in a meaningful way?

and please, PLEASE, incorperate this concept in more ways than spells and weapons. Those who can command their respective elements could use them to solve puzzles as well..

Umm, could you maybe give an example? I''m not sure what kind of puzzles you mean. Also, isn''t commanding the elements a form of magic?
I think the reason we so often see it in weapons is because combat is major part of most rpgs.
It''s most evident in magic because unless told otherwise, we assume everything else works according to our own worldview. Heck, many games use elemental magic, but don''t make those elements the literal building blocks of everything.

Mystic energies with an elemental flavor is probably a better representation of what shows up in games. This works well enough, since it allows magics to be divided into basic themes. However, they have been seeing a lot of use lately. Unless you plan on making these forces an integral part of the setting, you may want to try something else.

I believe Chrono Cross used six opposed chromatic elements: White vs Black, Red (Fire) vs Blue (Water), and Yellow (Earth/Lightning?) vs Green (Plant). While the first two were easy enough to place. I admit I still have trouble remember that last relationship.

I''d say the reason that these elements are so commonly used is that it three of them stand for the "realms" of our own world. Every tribe noticed the difference between gound and sky, and generally sttributed them to separate beings. Those on the coast also recognized the ocean as it''s own realm. Thus we have three "kingdoms" and three elements: Sky/Air, Ground/Earth, and Ocean/Water. You can fit fire in there a number of ways, but I suspect a large part of it is that fact it fascniates us. (Humans are such pyros... ;-) )

I would ask for a finer breakdown of "Earth" since it seems to include most living things, or at least plants, in most models I''ve seen. Traditionally life was supposed to be a balance of these elements. (Which means your classic fantasy mages who focused on a single element should be having some major health problems.) I know plants are rooted in the ground, but in fact, they are largely constructed of materials created of air, water, and sunlight, more than actual minerals from the soil. In fact, I''d be tempted to split things into the animate and inanimate and divide from there. How does this strike you: Sky, Ground, Ocean, Animal, Plant, and Spirit? That gives you three regions and three classes of life. But I may be getting into insomnia crambling, so I''ll stop now.

For a bit of humor on the subject, look here.