I wouldn''t join a project that didn''t have a design created already. IMO, products need a leader and a central design goal. More heads are better, and introducing new ideas should be welcomed, but I would feel like a project with a leader would get the job done and not die in beuracracy.

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
Because "Game Designer" (a fake job position which really doesn''t exist) usually describes a self-important do-nothing asshole.

I''ll be sure to tell that to the likes of Jordan Mechner, Will Wright, Peter Molyneaux, Chris Crawford, Christ Taylor and Sid Meier if I ever see them...

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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by Wavinator

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
Because "Game Designer" (a fake job position which really doesn''t exist) usually describes a self-important do-nothing asshole.

I''ll be sure to tell that to the likes of Jordan Mechner, Will Wright, Peter Molyneaux, Chris Crawford, Christ Taylor and Sid Meier if I ever see them...

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Just waiting for the mothership...

LOL

quote: Original post by sunandshadow
Aha! Victory! j/k

*bows*

quote:
So where exactly do you stand on the concept of story generation now, just out of curiosity?

Well, I think I''ve come to see a greater need for dramatic elements that invoke emotional responses. One of the major obstacles I''ve encountered is that without some sense of drama you create a game that is about objects rather than about people. Even The Sims, a game which has people as the very foundation of gameplay, is really a game about moving objects in response to timers. There''s no real space for the exploration of the human condition, which is one of the things that makes written stories extraordinarily compelling.

I still don''t like the "tree of death" problems that story generation imposes (ie., branching forces specific, limited solutions like those often found in Adventure games). And replayability is still a holy grail.

The compromise that I''ve been working on for some time is generating chains of dramatic events and not worry about whether or not they''re ultimately connected. This will not make for a good story on the retelling, but it may be enough of a fusion between play and story that its satisfying.

Science fiction is the only medium I know of, btw, that has such a parallel problem: There are gadget stories, where the people are secondary, and then there are character stories, which are like 99% of the rest of literature. Gadget stories tend not to hold you as you age and mature, imo. I think the same thing happens to people who play games: Fewer older than younger people play games in part because the games themselves are about objects and objectives. Maybe part of the reason The Sims has been so popular is that its one of the first games in recent years (discounting old school games like Little Computer People) that is actually about people and their lives-- even if it didn''t get the formula right.



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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by Wavinator

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
Because "Game Designer" (a fake job position which really doesn''t exist) usually describes a self-important do-nothing asshole.

I''ll be sure to tell that to the likes of Jordan Mechner, Will Wright, Peter Molyneaux, Chris Crawford, Chris Taylor and Sid Meier if I ever see them...

Incredibly, you picked a list of people who were all originally programmers as well as designers, and only migrated to a design-only stage once they had the prestige and the financial backing to be able to pay people to make their vision.

I think the point the AP - and myself - were attempting to make, is that there''s no place for people who just come up with overall ideas, and then direct a few peons in order to get the game constructed. All but the best need to get their hands dirty. None of the above started as ''concept designers'' because there is no such position for people at the entry level. I mean, yes, technically it might happen and you might somehow get a team of people willing to put in months of work based on your little idea, but as a hobbyist, you''re unlikely to attract anyone of worth that way.

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Possibly if its for the moeny you should remeber that the more people there are the less pie there is.

quote: Original post by Kylotan

quote: Original post by Wavinator

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
Because "Game Designer" (a fake job position which really doesn''t exist) usually describes a self-important do-nothing asshole.

I''ll be sure to tell that to the likes of Jordan Mechner, Will Wright, Peter Molyneaux, Chris Crawford, Chris Taylor and Sid Meier if I ever see them...

Incredibly, you picked a list of people who were all originally programmers as well as designers, and only migrated to a design-only stage once they had the prestige and the financial backing to be able to pay people to make their vision.

I think the point the AP - and myself - were attempting to make, is that there''s no place for people who just come up with overall ideas, and then direct a few peons in order to get the game constructed. All but the best need to get their hands dirty. None of the above started as ''concept designers'' because there is no such position for people at the entry level. I mean, yes, technically it might happen and you might somehow get a team of people willing to put in months of work based on your little idea, but as a hobbyist, you''re unlikely to attract anyone of worth that way.

[ MSVC Fixes | STL Docs | SDL | Game AI | Sockets | C++ Faq Lite | Boost
Asking Questions | Organising code files | My stuff | Tiny XML | STLPort]

Ok now your taking the piss, do you purposely skip over my expiations of what the hell I''m saying or is it some kind of genetic defect.

I said that a concept designer usually moves onto being the lead designer, the guy who tells his team what to do, whats going into the game and everything else, he controls the project.

Yes their are cases where someone pretends to be a concept designer with some idea and trys to get everyone else to do his word but in my example that the stupid AP poster above was trying to slime i was exclusively talking about myself as an example.

I HAVE programming skills, I KNOW how to build a computer game, I am AWARE of how much work is involved, i AM NOT just a lazy concept designer who wont work on the game itself HENCE my example is valid and falls in line with my point, so can we now stop talking about this completely irrelevant point and move on now.

quote: Original post by Siolis
Ok now your taking the piss, do you purposely skip over my expiations of what the hell I''m saying or is it some kind of genetic defect.

Personal insults are not allowed here; please read the Forum FAQ before accusing people of having ''genetic defects'' again.

quote: I said that a concept designer usually moves onto being the lead designer, the guy who tells his team what to do, whats going into the game and everything else, he controls the project.

A more accurate word for you are describing is ''producer''. Good luck being a producer on a hobbyist title. I''ve already made my point as to why this position rarely exists in the non-professional area.

quote: I HAVE programming skills, I KNOW how to build a computer game, I am AWARE of how much work is involved, i AM NOT just a lazy concept designer who wont work on the game itself HENCE my example is valid and falls in line with my point, so can we now stop talking about this completely irrelevant point and move on now.

In case you didn''t notice, my last post was not in reply to you, and was illustrating how everybody in your so-called ''concept designer'' position had published games from a more practical position in the first place. This is not ''completely irrelevant'' and in fact links right back to the very start of this post, where Sunandshadow implies that lots of people want to go straight to ''concept designer'' without getting involved as a normal designer within the constraints of a team.

[ MSVC Fixes | STL Docs | SDL | Game AI | Sockets | C++ Faq Lite | Boost
Asking Questions | Organising code files | My stuff | Tiny XML | STLPort]

quote: Original post by Wavinator
Even The Sims, a game which has people as the very foundation of gameplay, is really a game about moving objects in response to timers.

Much like with puppet toys, the blandness and lack of depth of the characters in the Sims allows players to project their own stories and character descriptions.

[edited by - Diodor on March 17, 2004 1:11:29 AM]

quote: Original post by Diodor

quote: Original post by Wavinator
Even The Sims, a game which has people as the very foundation of gameplay, is really a game about moving objects in response to timers.

Much like with puppet toys, the blandness and lack of depth of the characters in the Sims allows players to project their own stories and character descriptions.

I''ve spent plenty of time playing The Sims and it is _not_ like playing will dolls unless you turn off ''free will''. I completely agree with wavinator, the game is mostly about the objects, and it''s about schedules and time efficiency like any other sim game. I have seen fanfiction generated by treating the sims like dolls, dressing them and posing them and taking pictures, but it''s a sompletely different style of play than the game is intended for and designed to support.