(The AP was me.)
Yes, I realize cRPGs are not RPGs (but whenever I say it, people always argue). That was why I said a standard MMORPG rather than just an RPG. The point was that the player needs to know the prices to know if it is worth buying an item, and without using text it could be difficult to communicate a numeric amount or a specific good without having a large library of images (which takes up more HD space).

If preventing griefing is the only reason for a symbol-based communication, I would reccomend the 'chat menu' where you can pick from predefined statements/questions (or maybe where you can piece them together from set phrases).

Doing it with gestures, icons, etc, would have a learning curve and I don't think people would really use the in-game system very much under those conditions. People are lazy and impatient, and having to learn what symbols/gestures mean and wait around for the avatar to finish doing them would try peoples patience and give your game a bad reputation despite whatever other merits it has.

[edited by - extrarius on February 3, 2004 2:42:17 PM]

quote: Original post by Extrarius
The point was that the player needs to know the prices to know if it is worth buying an item, and without using text it could be difficult to communicate a numeric amount or a specific good without having a large library of images (which takes up more HD space).

Niggling. And nobody said the game couldn''t display text ("What, no signboards in this town?"); I''m just exploring restricting how much players should be allowed to. HD space, btw, is so not an issue.

quote: [Communicating] with gestures, icons, etc, would have a learning curve and I don''t think people would really use the in-game system very much under those conditions. People are lazy and impatient, and having to learn what symbols/gestures mean and wait around for the avatar to finish doing them would try peoples patience and give your game a bad reputation despite whatever other merits it has.

No offense, but that was a dumb statement. "Bad reputation"? Depends on what you''re shooting for. Did you skip all the previous comments about when it makes sense and when it doesn''t? Do you think I''d just try to graft an iconic system on top of EverQuest or StarCraft?

A system of icons sounds like the way Chinese is built upon pictograms. Over time, combinations of different symbols has created new words. Example: big+study=university (大学 <-- if you have asian fonts installed).

I guess it would be kinda cool though if the players created they''re own language by making combinations of the icons available (i.e saying the icon for ''food'' followed by the icon for ''sword'' would equal ''go hunting''). Although this would defeat Oluseyi original purpose though (restricting what the players are allowed express).

quote: Original post by usser
A system of icons sounds like the way Chinese is built upon pictograms. Over time, combinations of different symbols has created new words. Example: big+study=university (大学 <-- if you have asian fonts installed).

I guess it would be kinda cool though if the players created they''re own language by making combinations of the icons available (i.e saying the icon for ''food'' followed by the icon for ''sword'' would equal ''go hunting'').

This is a cool idea and was kind of what Silvermyst and I discussed - a concatenative system where higher-order constructs were represented by sequences of basic concepts.

quote: Although this would defeat Oluseyi original purpose though (restricting what the players are allowed express).

It''s not necessarily expression I''m trying to limit; it''s vulgarity. So long as a player can''t utter profanities or cause significant communicative nuisance to another player, I really don''t care what they say.

I think that no matter what system you use player will find ways to obnoxius, and annoying. Perhaps the only solution is elimante all broadcast "talking" and allow players to only talk to players the initiated a conversation with.

-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document

This is an interesting thread. One difficulty I see with graphical languages (or any language, really) is that it is not just the symbols that people have to learn, but the grammar rules as well. If combinations of symbols are to be meaningful, there must be rules on how combinations are put together. Take that big+study example; does it mean the same thing as study+big?

quote: Original post by Plasmadog
This is an interesting thread. One difficulty I see with graphical languages (or any language, really) is that it is not just the symbols that people have to learn, but the grammar rules as well. If combinations of symbols are to be meaningful, there must be rules on how combinations are put together. Take that big+study example; does it mean the same thing as study+big?

Wouldn''t that be up to the people communicating? We provide a low-level vocabulary and then encourage people to come up with their own dialects based on that. Some gamers might set up webpages of common phrases, or device unique combinations to communicate additional meaning to their friends. In an iconography, it''s logical to assume that everything "said" will be "heard" by everyone in the vicinity since the icons will appear visible to everyone (a developer could make an exception for private messages), so this tactic could be useful for that purpose.

Back to grammars: people learning an existing language have to learn its rules, but they can also pervert its rules. Languages - and cultures - are not static, which is why we don''t speak with thees and thous anymore. Tribes of users could use the same basic icons to mean different things, causing all sorts of cross-communicative chaos... Oh, the possibilities!

Don't you think it might be confusing for newcomers. They may understand the meaning of each icon individually, but when the icons are put together, don't you think each player might have his/her own interpretation thus misunderstanding could occur?

Food+Sword for example:
some people might think it's hunting time.
some people might think you want to trade food for a sword or viceversa.
some people might think using food as a sword.
some people might think how much food and sword they have.

edit:
did you notice that there is "Emotions" in Toontown? maybe they use icons there. btw, I want to play that game, it looks fun

[edited by - alnite on February 4, 2004 12:13:24 AM]

quote: Original post by alnite
Food+Sword for example:
some people might think it''s hunting time.
some people might think you want to trade food for a sword or viceversa.
some people might think using food as a sword.
some people might think how much food and sword they have.

Well, two of those could be ruled out with a question mark at the end. And just because it''s possible to make incoherant sentences doesn''t mean people use sentences that makes no sense. What I mean is, if you provided a wide set of icons, wouldn''t people try to make as much sense as possible?

Hmm..except for griefers who would walk around making no sense at all, but considering that, it would make having griefers around a lot more fun

-Luctus
Statisticly seen, most things happens to other people.
[Mail]

quote: Original post by Luctus

quote: Original post by alnite
Food+Sword for example:
some people might think it''s hunting time.
some people might think you want to trade food for a sword or viceversa.
some people might think using food as a sword.
some people might think how much food and sword they have.

Well, two of those could be ruled out with a question mark at the end. And just because it''s possible to make incoherant sentences doesn''t mean people use sentences that makes no sense. What I mean is, if you provided a wide set of icons, wouldn''t people try to make as much sense as possible?

Hmm..except for griefers who would walk around making no sense at all, but considering that, it would make having griefers around a lot more fun

Well yes, they would try to make sense, but since they are arranging the icons according to their own unique way of thinking amd cultural background, there is a good chance that it will not make any sense to anyone else. Ever played Pictionary? Sometimes in that game a player will just completely baffle everyone, even when they have good drawing skills, but in their own mind their drawing makes perfect sense. In a situation like that, it would be hard to tell the difference between a griefer hitting random icons and someone who is genuinely trying to communicate.