Player griefing is a well-known problem in multiplayer games of any sort. While allowing players to fully express themselves to each other, whether in text or via voice, can add immeasurably to the atmosphere and immersion of a game, it can also create avenues for abuse of other players. In Disney Online''s Toontown (GamaSutra postmortem), the developers opted for a menu-based chat system with pre-configured phrases instead, only allowing players on a given user''s "Secret Friends" list to send arbitrary text. This is a good idea. Silvermyst and I had a similar idea a few months back, discussing at one time a game about anthropomorphosized dinosaurs (I was rooting for cute, cuddly baby dinos, btw) in which player-to-player communication would be carried out using a similar system. Our difference, however, was that we thought about using icons, symbols and character expressions alone - ie, no text - to communicate. What do you think? How would an iconographic communication system work out in your opinion? Would it be robust and expressive enough? Do you see potential for such a system in non-kiddie type games?

That''s an interesting idea. I''d discussed a similar issue with a group when we were working out concepts for a prehistoric man/caveman idea. My argument was that language should be rudimentary and basic at best, with actual speech being a learned skill. I proposed starting the characters with emotes instead of language, and depending on the intensity of the gesture it could be punctuated with screeches, hoots and barks.

Obviously I do believe an iconographic communication system - or, in my example, a non-verbal communication system - would work very well in a non-kiddie game. It depends, however, largely on the game concept and how important freedom of language would be within the game environs.

At a glance I couldn''t imagine playing DAOC without open text. I would feel too limited. But then I reconsidered; do I really need to say whatever comes to mind? I realized I could get by very easily using a very diverse set of prescribed text/vocal emotes. The only reason I would NEED free text would be for casual conversation, or chat channels. Conversation from player to player, or general broadcast/shout/speech, could happily be narrowed to a set of pre-recorded text blocks.

In fact, thinking further into it - as an old-fogey roleplayer I think I''d PREFER to play a MMO that limited your text to prescribed speech. Yes, it does limit you - but it also challenges you, and more importantly from that POV it forces OTHERS to role-play. It would be impossible to have OOC chat in open areas.

The argument that you couldn''t possibly role-play if your text is limited becomes false when you realize that you''d still be able to chat OOC, or completely IC, on chat channels/group chat. Your group would be able to converse in GC happily, no matter the conversation; throw in the occasional open chat /emote (or /vemote?) and you make your presence known, without being intrusive.

Interesting.

Have you played Phantasy Star for the Dreamcast? It uses both icons, prescripted sentence fragments and text. I found it easier to type, oddly enough, especially because you could store prescripted sentences.

I think the degree to which an icon communication system will work is directly proportional to how fast the game is and how many descrete strategies and states there are. In Phantasy Star, for instance, occassionally one character class will have to alert another about a change in the game world that only they can see (invisible traps, for instance). A quick button that shows a warning icon and the nature of the danger would work fine for this example, I''d think, because in Phantasy Star players who can''t see traps can hang out in a safe zone while the players who can clear them.

If you have a fast game or if your strategies and states aren''t very cut and dry, this might be a problem. A player playing a fast game is already going to have to memorize the controls for their avatar and whatever it can do in the game. Memorizing communication icons might add to their stress during play.

Also, if you have a wide number of strategies and states, or states that are a bit fuzzy (say, in need of healing with a double dose of a specific herb to remove poison rather than just "poisoned" in general) I would think communicating with icons could get complicated. Icons, though, could be used for the general case, with communication via voice or typing used for specifics.

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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by EricTrickster
That''s an interesting idea. I''d discussed a similar issue with a group when we were working out concepts for a prehistoric man/caveman idea. My argument was that language should be rudimentary and basic at best, with actual speech being a learned skill. I proposed starting the characters with emotes instead of language, and depending on the intensity of the gesture it could be punctuated with screeches, hoots and barks.

The downside to the rudimentary/progressive approach is that the complexity of the system rises. An iconography lends itself to relative simplicity rather than dense information transport (see my later comments on specificity in response to Wavinator).

I should probably clarify that, to me, iconography doesn''t necessarily connote solely visual elements. It can be augumented with sounds and movement; I guess it''s more of a symbol system. You may recall that Halo was initially rumored to incorporate a hand gesture system for ordering troops. As far as I can tell, that was cut from the game...

quote: In fact, thinking further into it - as an old-fogey roleplayer I think I''d PREFER to play a MMO that limited your text to prescribed speech. Yes, it does limit you - but it also challenges you, and more importantly from that POV it forces OTHERS to role-play. It would be impossible to have OOC chat in open areas.

That is an interesting point. Using an iconography that consists of emotes and other rather basic constructs, a wide variety of "statements" could be constructed - and augumented by "Simlish" (the quaint babbling of The Sims) and character gesture - all appropriate to the genre, era and avatar - for a deeper role-playing experience.

The value of that is questionable, however, given that gamer trends seem to indicate that actual role-play is not a high priority. Hacking and slashing and free-form communication seem to usurp it by far.

quote: Original post by Wavinator
Have you played Phantasy Star for the Dreamcast? It uses both icons, prescripted sentence fragments and text. I found it easier to type, oddly enough, especially because you could store prescripted sentences.

Alas, I never played PS (was that Phantasy Star Online?) for DC, but now that you mention it I do recall a screenshot similar to that when it was ported to PS2 (right?)

quote: I think the degree to which an icon communication system will work is directly proportional to how fast the game is and how many descrete strategies and states there are.

Obviously. A game like CounterStrike or SOCOM 2 stands to gain nothing from replacing voice and text chat with iconic communication. In fact, it loses quite a bit of its grit. And the potential animosity of a voice system dovetails with the theme of mature shooters like the aforementioned. I''m not suggesting it as a replacement, but rather as yet another option when it makes sense.

An iconic communication system is low-bandwidth in that relatively little information can be carried in the icons themselves. Combining it with character gestures, postures and expression can increase that bandwidth, but those physical cues might have to be exaggerated to be viable on-screen...

Your comment about specificity (two doses of a specific herb) highlights another shortcoming of the system. Combinational icons (stringing icons together to create a sign language) could be explored to overcome this, but I wouldn''t recommend it in a high-action context.

If you wanted to make your game mildly educational, you could use an actual sign-language. And you would not be limited to pre-set hand gestrues since you could "spell" out any missing words, names, ect.

And if you do the hand gester animation well enough, you would have a small chunk of the population that will be able to pick the game up and run with it.

quote: Original post by Oluseyi
Using an iconography that consists of emotes and other rather basic constructs, a wide variety of "statements" could be constructed - and augumented by "Simlish" (the quaint babbling of The Sims) and character gesture - all appropriate to the genre, era and avatar - for a deeper role-playing experience.

I see you connected this idea to The Sims before I could... but indeed, The Sims uses an iconography to communicate feelings and conversation from your Sim to you. So I''d suggest studying the strengths and failings of that system would be a good idea.

From a development lifecycle point of view, it doesn''t have to be all that limiting. You ship the game with a given set of 200 icons or so, and then provide a mechanism for players to request other icons... you then have your artists take the most frequently requested icons, and add them to the library to be downloaded by all players when they next log in.

I think that if you didn''t allow voice communication, groups of friends would just use external voice comm (as I do with my friends even when the game supports it, because the external program usually has higher quality sound).
It might be interesting if you could convince people not to do such a thing, but I don''t think you could convince everybody. Also, if it is a standard MMORPG where there are shops etc, it could be very frustrating figuring out how much something costs(in cash, goods, favors, whatever) without using a language that at least had numerics unless you made an icon for every good, or icons representing different amounts of money (coin, small bag, large bag, etc?)

Sorry if I''m stating the obvious, but...

The icons themselves only play half the role in a system like this, the other is the character animations.

For example, a single sign meaning food can be used to convey a number of different things, but the meaning needs to be conveyed through the avatars actions more than the actual symbol itself.

For example, the food symbol with the avatar pointing toward itself could be used as "I''m hungry", where as with his hands reaching toward another avatar could be "Hungry??", and again the same symbol with the avatar reaching for a weapon could be "Lets go hunting!". The exact same symbol could be used in all these examples, but the clear meaning is coming from the way the character is reacting on screen...

The animations of the character have to be done in a manner that is totally unambigious and clear to the player from the outset.

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quote: Original post by doodle_sketch
Sorry if I''m stating the obvious, but...

The icons themselves only play half the role in a system like this, the other is the character animations.

For example, a single sign meaning food can be used to convey a number of different things, but the meaning needs to be conveyed through the avatars actions more than the actual symbol itself.

For example, the food symbol with the avatar pointing toward itself could be used as "I''m hungry", where as with his hands reaching toward another avatar could be "Hungry??", and again the same symbol with the avatar reaching for a weapon could be "Lets go hunting!". The exact same symbol could be used in all these examples, but the clear meaning is coming from the way the character is reacting on screen...

The animations of the character have to be done in a manner that is totally unambigious and clear to the player from the outset.

SketchSoft OFFLINE | SketchNews OFFLINE | NewKlear Studios

That doesn''t require player actions or animations to convey a message all you have to realize is that a conversation is not one icon but a series of icons. So "I''m hungry" = Need + Food. "Are you hungry" = Offer + Food. "Lets go hunting" = Food + Fight. "I''ll give you this sword for some food" = Offer + Sword + Need + Food.


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quote: Original post by doodle_sketch
Sorry if I''m stating the obvious, but...

The icons themselves only play half the role in a system like this, the other is the character animations.

If you look through the preceding posts, you''ll see mentions of "gesture" and "posture".

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
I think that if you didn''t allow voice communication, groups of friends would just use external voice comm.

That''s a non-issue. People who know each other can do whatever they please; the system would only restrict people from griefing those they didn''t know. That''s its only intent.

quote: Also, if it is a standard MMORPG...

You do realize that typical "RPGs" are oxymorons, in that you hardly role-play at all? You further realize that the shops and so forth don''t require actual communication with the shopkeeper in much of a textual form: if it''s a fixed-priced store, pick what you want and pay; if it''s a barter system, go see Theme Park''s employee negotiation (over a plate of cookies, natch).

quote: Original post by Kars
If you wanted to make your game mildly educational, you could use an actual sign-language. And you would not be limited to pre-set hand gestrues since you could "spell" out any missing words, names, ect.

Eww. I despise edutainment for people over six years old. If you want to learn something, learn it. If you want to be entertained, be entertained. Inserting a surreptitious educational element into a role-playing scenario is a total digression that I can''t see adding any value whatsoever.

No offense, of course.

The "exception" to this rule is faithfully presenting historical information in a period game. This may unintentionally educate the gamer, but its sole purpose is to provide atmosphere.

quote: Original post by Superpig
I see you connected this idea to The Sims before I could... but indeed, The Sims uses an iconography to communicate feelings and conversation from your Sim to you. So I''d suggest studying the strengths and failings of that system would be a good idea.

Good point.

quote: From a development lifecycle point of view, it doesn''t have to be all that limiting. You ship the game with a given set of 200 icons or so, and then provide a mechanism for players to request other icons... you then have your artists take the most frequently requested icons, and add them to the library to be downloaded by all players when they next log in.

Good idea.