Yes, I know I don''t HAVE to insert line breaks, but I prefer
WYSIWYG comments. With the exception of quoting.

"I''d disagree emphatically with that assessment. Every game has a goal; is every game therefore a puzzle game?"

Well, the properties of a puzzle, I believe, are a problem and a
solution. I can''t name a game that doesn''t fit that description.
Generally, games are multi-puzzles. You may or may not know what
the problem is when you start, but roadblocks are usually thrown
in the way that are puzzles themselves. Heck, finding the "big
problem" in itself can be a puzzle.

Now, I was pretty tired when I wrote that and I was probably
trying to prove a point, but I think I may have lost that point.

I also think if we were to be defining what kind of genre you
were referring to, it would be more of an "Adventure Game" than
a "Puzzle Game".

All in all, this would make a great text game at the very least.

-Hyatus
"da da da"

I think your biggest challenge will be in making this feature fun. Good control in games is a big deal, and making that control indirect will be a huge obstacle.

I guess this will come down to story and execution. If there is a good reason why I (as a player) do not directly control the character then I would probably be on board big time. If this indirect control was refreshing and fun enough then I would be on board big time!

Black & White annoyed me a great deal. In this game you indirectly controlled your creature through "teaching" it. Often my creature would not do what I wanted it to do and at one point I couldn''t keep my creature away from the water. For some reason he needed to drink constantly. Then again, watching my creature cast spells it had learned from me was very rewarding.

Actually, I think I would have loved this game, including the whole creature that you control indirectly except for the villagers. I wanted to play as a good immortal, so I tried to do good by my people. They never were content and always clamored for more buildings, or more food. Instead of being able to set things up so that the worshippers at the temple were fed, you were forced to lift food to them. This level of micromanagement for something so repetitive is a huge design flaw. The indirect control of the creature could be annoying, but it could also be very entertaining to watch it do unexpected things. I particularly liked it when my creature learned magic.

Have you considered giving your player some direct way to effect things in addition to controlling the main character indirectly?

@dink:
I think that making a game fun is the central challenge of every title/project. Creating an atmosphere that lends credence to this choice of input mechanism is important, as is minimizing frustration while remaining challenging. A key element is probably making "reasoning" trasnparent to the player: if the character balks at a task, the player should know exactly why that is and be able to decide whether to press or to let it slide. Good audio and voice acting could be massive benefits here...

quote: Have you considered giving your player some direct way to effect things in addition to controlling the main character indirectly?

That''s a very good point. The exact mechanism might depend on the game''s world, and it might not work for certain implementations. Considering the "possessed possession" (eg sword) scenario, it could be that you grow in strength as you turn to player to align with your objectives (it would be nice for you to also be able to choose Light or Dark sides) and that would allow you to directly affect the world. If your hero is a knight/palladin type, your being able to employ magic could aid him in your quest.

Of course, there should also be some good plot points. I can see betrayal options later on aplenty!

arguably and indirect control game will be either a puzzle or simulation game.
As far as the flags would go if the character had memory and was able to learn then those emotional respones could play a part in future actions and decision making. Example you want to open a jar and the player decides to a maxium anger flag on the jar. Thus causing the player to become enraged and smash the jar on the floor. However the emotional stimulius was so great now the player finds the character smashing ever jar they come across. You could included a mental stablity factor into the game so that if the player trys to overide there jar smashing obsessed character by playing happyiness flags on the jars it could cause the character to become unhinged and leave unsure if they should smash or hug jars, perhaps causing a mental break down forcing you to find a new host.

Depending on your emotion engine the game could become extremely interesting when you simultaniously have multiple objects with emotion flags and seeing how the character handles that.



-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document

This made me think of the movie Brother Bear, in which a man is transformed into a bear.

With your human mind (direct input) you would need to control the animal body and animal instincts (=impulses).

NOTE: I haven't seen the movie, so not sure if the transformed human had difficulties controlling the bear body and/or if he needed to control animal instincts.

As to the emotion flags: Majesty used reward flags (explore flag and kill flag) which semi-controlled the behavior of NPC heroes.

[edited by - Silvermyst on January 30, 2004 1:21:46 PM]

quote: Original post by Silvermyst
NOTE: I haven''t seen the movie, so not sure if the transformed human had difficulties controlling the bear body and/or if he needed to control animal instincts.

It''s a Disney movie. ''Nuff said about anthropomorphic difficulty.

Have you ever heard of LifeLine? It appeared in the most recsent issue of GamePro, and in it, you issue orders to the character via headset. The voice recognition had better kick ass in this game. Anyways, this is indirect control.

--------------------------------------
I am the master of stories.....
If only I could just write them down...

I think that "indirect" control is going to end up become a new trend with games. I''m trying to think of a way to implement this into the AI engine of my proposed game DITL. I have a few ideas scrambled around that I just have to put together.

LKD/Myriad,
1

http://myriadproductions.8m.com

Read DITL Game Proposal
http://myriadprod.tripod.com/interactive/ditl_gamedesigndoc.htm

Some other scenario''s which could fit the indirect control method:

-siamese twin (Stuck On You)
-split personality (Herman''s Head)

I really think this would make for an interesting control method. Implemented properly, indirect control may actually be a lot LESS frustrating than direct control, as a lot of the character''s actions become (semi)automated.

I think the split personality scenario lends itself extremely well for this idea. The player could select the personality that he thinks will be best for a given situation. The actions of the character would then be influenced by that personality, but also by the player''s input.

I even see room for ''experience''. If one personality is used more than any of the others, that personality would become dominant, and harder to control.

Interesting ideas, Silvermyst. I particularly like the split-personality scenario. What other ways can people think of applying stimulus-driven control (and post them here rather than asking us to read a document to which they don''t even provide a clicky... *hint, hint*)?