I''m playing devil''s advocate, so excuse me picking apart these posts .
I like the idea, and it deserves a lot of thought.

quote: Original post by The Senshi
Well, good actions are pretty obvious IMHO. For instance, in Everquest it might include:
- Healing other players in battle
[snip]

Healing other players in battle can be an evil act, in context.
If you''re healing a player so he can defeat the Good King, who would otherwise have been strong enough to withstand the assault, for instance. Or assisting ANY player with healing to accomplish murder.

I think I stand with FreakFish here, murder should ALWAYS be bad, nomatter what. There might be grades of bad. ( "I had no choice but to kill that monster, it was in self defense" ), but bad none the less. Make the players DREAD killing something, unless they are sure that there is no alternative.
( "Damn, if I whack that goblin, I might wake up a wererat tomorrow morning." ).




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quote: Original post by MadKeithV

I think I stand with FreakFish here, murder should ALWAYS be bad, nomatter what. There might be grades of bad. ( "I had no choice but to kill that monster, it was in self defense" ), but bad none the less. Make the players DREAD killing something, unless they are sure that there is no alternative.
( "Damn, if I whack that goblin, I might wake up a wererat tomorrow morning." ).

Are we getting into a philosophicak debate here ?
Becaus I think it''s what you guys are talking about here ? Is killing good or bad, should it be punished, justified ?
Do we follow Deontology (killing is BAD, period), Utilitarianism (if killing help the greater number, then kill) or something else (personaly I love the Karma idea !!!).

Maybe we should have a way to ASK explicitly hte player what kind of guy he wants to be. I mean, why don''t we have some sort of alignment system, that actually is useful. I am thinking something along the lines of ADOM is a good idea for a beginning.
But I''d like to see more of something where, if you want to be a bad guy, then say it clearly at the creation of your character.
If you want to change your alignment, then we should have some sort of criteria. (If an evil guy decide he wants to be after all a paladin, then he would have to prove it FIRST, by having behaved like a paladin for a while, then the alignment switch would take place).

Anyway.

I want to be able to play whatever I want ! Consistency in the role. And some ability to roleplay.

youpla :-P

quote: Original post by MadKeithV

I''m playing devil''s advocate, so excuse me picking apart these posts .
I like the idea, and it deserves a lot of thought.

Healing other players in battle can be an evil act, in context.
If you''re healing a player so he can defeat the Good King, who would otherwise have been strong enough to withstand the assault, for instance. Or assisting ANY player with healing to accomplish murder.

I agree with you on these points... I still think that performing a quest is going to be the primary means of redemption.

quote:
I think I stand with FreakFish here, murder should ALWAYS be bad, nomatter what. There might be grades of bad. ( "I had no choice but to kill that monster, it was in self defense" ), but bad none the less. Make the players DREAD killing something, unless they are sure that there is no alternative.
( "Damn, if I whack that goblin, I might wake up a wererat tomorrow morning." ).

OK, you guys (though I understand your point of view) are missing the point. MMORPGS encompass 3 things: Escapism, Socializing and Fun. Now, if all killing were bad to include monsters... what fun is that? Every RPG out there is designed for the player to become the hero, to perform feats that he can''t do in real life (that''s the escape). Online RPGs are designed to bring players together, to talk and role play (Socializing and Fun). If you make killing monsters a "bad" thing then you have taken some of the escape factor away.

My earlier post spells it out.... religion isn''t perfect. Our made up one is far from it. Killing is bad in pretty much ever religion that I know of and yet, it still happens. But instead of being punished after death, your cursed immediately This doesn''t have to be at the hand of some God, it could be part of the world, a misterious plane that allows magic to exist in our world.

What we are trying to accomplish with this design is to keep everyone in the same game PKs and nonPKs. The PK/nonPK thing is a big issue... (if you don''t belive it, go on over to www.uo2.com and read the latest from their designers) this is the way we are planning to handle it.

Thanks for the comments and keep them coming








Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

quote: Original post by Dak Lozar

If you make killing monsters a "bad" thing then you have taken some of the escape factor away.

I think you have to be VERY careful there, in the system you are describing.
You have a "karma" system, thereby determining certain things that your world deems are "good", and some that are "bad".
There''s an educational factor here, will your game say "but killing monsters is okay"? What happens if you misbalance, and certain types of players end up turned into monsters when they didn''t deserve it. "Killing deviants is okay"?

I''m not trying to get you to abandon the idea, but be very very careful about it. Making a statement about murder is very dangerous.

( Specially to some of us who still consider the death penalty one of the purest acts of barbarism... )


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About the educational factor you are talking about, maybe it is a good thing to check what Lionhead has done on the Black&White game (still to come?). This game is based on good & evil actions that you teach your pet creature.

In the first posts, I read that a monster (previously human) killing anyone else (monster or human) would become an even less powerfull monster! That means once you have become a monster there is nothing you can do to become human again?
People who like PK might want to play as monsters. Monsters killing other living creatures might become MORE powerfull monsters... until they will become so powerfull players will be interrested in killing them for XP (new quests?)!

Human kill human --> change (slowly) to monster, -XP
Human kill monster --> XP --> stronger human
Monster kill monster --> ?
Monster kill human --> XP --> stronger monster

But that still leaves the question:
How does a monster player do to change back to human? (redemption, what''s a good action when you are a monster, ...)

I''ll sum up some alternatives and their consequences:

1.

Human kill human --> bad ( become monster )
Human kill monster --> good
Monster kill monster --> bad ( become weaker )
Monster kill human --> good


Now you have two parallel cultures killing eachother, each with their own community. I think this is why they originally suggested to NOT do this.

2.

Human kill human --> bad ( become monster )
Human kill monster --> good
Monster kill monster --> good
Monster kill human --> bad


Now monsters are loners, fighting amongst themselves. Defending against human assault will only leave them weaker, making being a monster very unattractive. This is the path I think they want to take.


3.

Human kill human --> bad ( become monster )
Human kill monster --> good
Monster kill monster --> good
Monster kill human --> good


No consequences as a monster. You kill -> you go up. Power playing is supported, but it shows in the character you play. If you play socially, you''re human. If you don''t, you''re a monster. Nothing is stopping you from forming a monster community, but nothing is supporting you either. You''re on your own, but not disadvantaged.




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quote: Original post by MadKeithV
You have a "karma" system, thereby determining certain things that your world deems are "good", and some that are "bad".
There''s an educational factor here, will your game say "but killing monsters is okay"? What happens if you misbalance, and certain types of players end up turned into monsters when they didn''t deserve it. "Killing deviants is okay"?

The system is/will be "Karma-like." In fact it won''t even be called Karma maybe Daka (sorry Kressilac, couldn''t resist)
I don''t think that the game (or any game of the genre) is or should be used as an educational tool. For one there really aren''t monsters and two... it is fantasy

As for someone turning into a monster when they didn''t deserve it... this will not happen. e.g. If you are attacked by another PC (who is not in the changing period) and instead of him killing you, you happen to kill him in self defence! You are not transformed. You have the right to defend yourself. In fact, I think that if you kill an attacker, maybe you should be allowed to take all of his items... is that justice?





Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

quote: Original post by MadKeithV
2.

Human kill human --> bad ( become monster )
Human kill monster --> good
Monster kill monster --> good
Monster kill human --> bad


Now monsters are loners, fighting amongst themselves. Defending against human assault will only leave them weaker, making being a monster very unattractive. This is the path I think they want to take.

MadKeithV,
That is the point. Becoming a monster isn''t glorious... it is a punishment for killing players. We want you to feel bad, be an outcast.

Human kill human --> bad ( become monster )
Human kill monster --> good
Monster kill monster --> good (can become human)
Monster kill human --> bad
Monster get killed --> becomes lesser monster



Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

I just realised, the system you are proposing will PROMOTE player killing.
Let me run it by you:

People start as humans. Some will be player killers, as always. These will turn into monsters.

Now, after a while you have some humans, and some monsters.
The monsters only have one option to get better: attacking other monsters. This will lead them to become human again. It also leads to the slain monsters becoming weaker.

What are you left with? A world full of a few monster-slaying monsters, a LOT of weak monsters and humans.

There will be nothing to kill but players, and even that is not rewarding...


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quote: Original post by MadKeithV

I just realised, the system you are proposing will PROMOTE player killing.
Let me run it by you:

People start as humans. Some will be player killers, as always. These will turn into monsters.

Now, after a while you have some humans, and some monsters.
The monsters only have one option to get better: attacking other monsters. This will lead them to become human again. It also leads to the slain monsters becoming weaker.

What are you left with? A world full of a few monster-slaying monsters, a LOT of weak monsters and humans.

There will be nothing to kill but players, and even that is not rewarding...

You have brought up some good points... But, I still don''t see how this will promote the killing of players. Are you saying that players will want to become weak beings? If I knew that was the result of me killing another player... I, for one, wouldn''t participate in these kinds of activities.
I may be wrong... don''t know. At any rate, you are giving us more "things" to think about in the design of this system. And that "is a Good Thing"(TM)(SM)






Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser