a game can still have a progressive nature without the silly linear weapon/armor mechanic. for example, using skills: the character might not need to change swords at all (unless they want a cooler looking one, or one with an enchantment, or whatever), but still have to play for a long time to master the swordfighting skill. in which case the same sword would be much deadlier in the hands of a master than a noob. kinda like real life.

As is often the case, I agree with krez. After all, if I am a near-undetectable scout with a small atlas of Mordor, an immunity to magical compulsion, and enough lembas to last a month, what''s to stop me from grabbing the Ring, slinking around the patrols to Mt. Doom, and melting the little trinket before anyone notices that Sauron''s mustering his forces? Of course, that combination of traits is so astronomically unlikely that it is nearly unthinkable.

The point is, there''s no reason for a really expensive sword to make a newb into a fury of death and pain. I''m not a huge fan of translating game time directly into combat viabiity, as is often the case, but I disapprove at least as much of a system in which your progress can be measured from your equip screen.

I like the skill idea, and can''t really think of a time it''s been used well. Final Fantasy II tried a neat system, but buying a new ace was always better than just raising a level or two.

I think this is an important issue for RPGs, because the whole point of role-play is to develop a character, and if combat--long a central feature in RPGs--is based on harware rather than skill, then a huge chunk of the gameplay is divorced from the character''s development. I''d rather see a skilled warrior who can use what''s at hand than a pimped out adventurer who''s rendered invincible by his Brilliant Platinum Armor of Bullet Reflection.

What about item experince and stats? The idea being that your equipment is just like a character. If you maintain them they will get better over time and allow the user to do more things, or use them better. You could keep the sword you start with and watch it improve over the course of the game or buy a new one at every town its up to the gamer.


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Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document

The item experience/level thing is a great idea by the way. But for it to work, you have to assume that magic is rather common, otherwise its hard to explain how a weapon just gets better, rather then breaking do to overuse.

Suikoden (PS2) by the way has an interesting game mechanic where characters can''t change weapons, but they can have their favorite weapon forged into a better weapon at a blacksmith place. Its a bit like FF8''s weapon remodling, except without unfinishable Lionheart item quest. Also, Wild Arms 3 (PS2 also) has a a similiar thing, each character has their own firearm that they never change, but can upgrade, purchase more ammo, improve accuracy, etc.

Not to be mean, but this thread seems to point out how Console and Computer RPGs suffer from ever better equipment syndrome and I''m the only one demonstrating Console RPGs that have alternative ideas.

If you don''t want to use magic to explain why an item like a sword gets better with use, you could assume that the race that made the sword has a very heavy biology based technology system. Every thing they make is a living creature of some kind. Living houses that grow/repair themselvs, sprinkle a speical grass seed to get carpeting, etc. You have to learn how to work with that specific weapon in order to get it to perform better.

Symbiot life form. You could use Venum or Carnage from the spiderman comics as a template. This could be an interesting idea, you don''t get new weapons as you go along. As you get to know your symbiout you can create sharper blades, more intracet lock picks, cause your symbiot to form different crystalin structures to use as armor, change colors to match the background, etc.

For futuristic settings you could also have nano-bots in a self reparing sword.

quote:

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Original post by Inmate2993
The problem with eliminating the progressive nature of RPGs is that we all know where Sauron lives,

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Well, surely this is as much a problem of the integration of story into RPGs. Ie. Isn''t the quest as much a journey of discovery.

Imagine a game where the player can replay it (and know who the enemy is). But because they haven''t discovered this in the game they have no reason to take them on.

Ie. If the player attacks the secret service mole, without having gathered any evidence then they can be arrested and put in prison. Furthermore, there can be complicating factors. Ie. When the mole is arrested (too early), the player won''t be vindicated since there is another spy in the agency and the leak will still be there.

While reading/skimming this thread I''ve been thinking about the kinds of situations we find in great lore with regard to equipment. Low end equipment is roughly made -- the composition weak, easily chipped, splintered, or dulled. High end equipment is made by master craftsmen, and is made more durable. Even the highest quality equipment is not noticeably more effective when first used than the lowest quality gear... a brand new low quality sword is just as lethal on the first run through as the blade of a grandmaster craftsman. But high quality gear lasts longer -- weapons stay sharper longer, armor retains is strength through more battering.

More importantly though, is that many characters -- especially the notable ones, which we generally want our players to feel they are -- establish relationships with their gear. The plate mail of a King would seem hideously out of place on the torso of a Peasant, but more than that, it would never be seen on another King. The heirloom pike of a simple thatcher would never leave said thatcher''s side but in death or extreme distraction.

My point is, characters should be encouraged to keep their gear and establish a sort of relationship with it. It gives identity to the character and opens the same kind of opportunities for plot development as the loss of a friend.

But how is this accomplished? I like what Inmate said early on, about specializing items, but I''d take it one step further -- make every high end weapon unique, with interesting (but not necessarily extreme) properties that make it a fascinating treasure. Also, give it name and a history -- who made it? Why? How did it come to be in the place where it is found?

Also make sure the style of the weapon fits a certain playstyle. For example a katana or samurai sword should never be used by a brute force fighter like a knight -- it would be ridiculous to do so, and there should be severe natural penalties -- i.e., damage is less, and speed and accuracy are hindered with such a weapon when wearing heavy armor.

Lastly, convince the player that, generally speaking, one weapon is as good as another. A spiked wooden club is NOT inherently less lethal than a broadsword, at least not by much. One just fits a different style, and also a different personality.

****************************************

Brian Lacy
ForeverDream Studios

Comments? Questions? Curious?
brian@foreverdreamstudios.com

"I create. Therefore I am."

I like the way you think, irbrian. What, then, would set apart the great gear from the less great gear? You cite durability, consistent performance, and prestige. All good ideas. How best to implement them, though?

Durability seems simple. Maybe a lousy sword needs to be sharpened once a month, with light use, and will corrode over time even if it isn't in use. A Durandal, on the other hand, would never rust, and would remain keen even after bisecting a thousand Saracens.

As to consistency of performance, perhaps every sword needs sharpened now and again, but a better sword needs it less frequently and can be sharpened more. After a dozen sharpenings, that bronze piece of crap you got for three gold pieces is worn down to a nub, and losses performance stats. A good steel blade, though, can be polished and honed scores of times without an appreciable change in balance or effectiveness.

Prestige is tougher to quantify. I'd have to agree that a story, along with the quality of the item, would be the root of its prestige. If we're to make such things available to the player, they must be somehow transferrable. I know from Ivanhoe and other sources that the loser of a joust might be compelled to surrender his arms and armour to the knight who bested him. So if a character has commissioned some excellent equipment, you could get it by besting him in a game of skill. There's always grave robbing, as well. Everyone loves to pull priceless artifacts off of the skeletons of ancient heroes.

In an MMO setting, it might be possible for a player to gain blacksmith skills and even build something of this caliber. To mesh with the recent discussion regarding ways for players to leave a permanent mark on the game world, perhaps your trademark could be stamped onto some extremely fancy gear, and that gear could be sold for oodles of cash, and then heroic deeds could be performed with it. Or perhaps an NPC smith or two could produce one masterpiece per month, and players could bid for it when it's done.

In a non-MMO world, you could just have a handful of famous things and let the player find them in tombs or earn them from quests or whatever. I'd prefer a world where there's a homogeneous mass of fair to good gear and a tiny minority of supremely badass items. Not necessarily to let you kill dragons with one hit, but to do everything a sword should do, every time, all the time, and never need attention. That's a good sword.

EDIT: To expand on Kars' idea of nanotech or biotech, it could be possible to make the weapons themselves a skill. If your character is a T1000, you could level up your "blade" subroutines to make harder, sharper blades in a hurry. A wind shaman could conjure up a staff of air, and with training, could maintain the construct longer, and make it more coherent in the world. This eliminates objects as weapons altogether, which may or may not be a good thing. It's basically a justification for linear weapon improvement, but the weapons are free, and require skills to use. Hrm. I don't think that's what I'm looking for.

[edited by - Iron Chef Carnage on January 2, 2004 2:34:26 AM]

In reply to the thoughts about weapon skills I don''t think that you have to add magic or biotechs to have increasing effectivity with a certain weapon. If every weapon is unique (which they probably are, especially in a medieval setting) then a person may very well have skills that only apply to their own unique weapons. A guy who has fought with the same sword for a couple of years will get to know that weapon intimately and will be able to perform feats with that weapon that he wouldn''t be able to do with another weapon. Of course there is a similarity between all swords (otherwise it would be silly to have the name ''swords'' at all) and a guy who is a master with a certain sword will probably be deadly with other, similar, swords too, but not as deadly as with the one he has trained with since childhood. If this feature is implemented it will be a harder decision to switch weapons, this new weapon looks great but you know that it will take some time before you will reach the same skill with it as your present one. Some guys may have fought with their copper daggers for twenty years (if copper daggers can survive for twenty years, maybe they are a bit magical) and they are practically a part of himself, making him more deadly than a fully armoured knight with a longsword.


/Berg

quote:

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Original post by irbrian
My point is, characters should be encouraged to keep their gear and establish a sort of relationship with it. It gives identity to the character and opens the same kind of opportunities for plot development as the loss of a friend.

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Let the characters themselves be very different from other characters, and design them having at least 2 planned ways of killing the most enemies with the character. Force the player to improve and find the best way to use the characters, and make weapons that complement the 2 planned ways of using them. Those weapons should work better than any other in most situations when being used with certain characters. (not like giving the weapons +15 damage when some character uses it but like I said let it complement the way of fighting)

By making the weapon you want the player''s weapon of choice for that character for a decent time you make him attached to it. It''s even better if weapons break, the player will choose if he should or not use the weapon based on fear of breaking it(the easier it breaks the more fear it generates, so you can find a balance between the fear and the wanting to use it) and when it eventually breaks, it forces the player to search for another weapon of choice, if he didn''t had in the inventory another weapon of the same kind or a replacement.