wow!

there is several misconception of art here
the fact is that there is no truly wrong or right here only confusion



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

To me, art is creative means to express emotions through materials, regardless of the given medium. In this case, some games would be considered art, others though, would not. A game that people play because they are board to pass the time (IE SOLITARE) is not art. On the other hand, any game with a story line (and many without) that are meant to MOVE the player.... that is definitly art. It is no different then a movie.

ok here i am

you may not agree with my post but YEAH it''s from my study in my art school (this may mean nothing but it is rank 5th in france)

so i''m art student and not native in english then i try to keep simple

a litle about history of art but in a fast and furious way from occidental culture view

at the begin was prehistoric age
mankind was struggle with nature, art was the expression of their experiance, which was a little mystic
their image was figuration of their relation to a struggle world
and the aestetic is tied to their impression of the world

then come proto histoire
the relation has evolve to a more magic approach full with spirit and the kind, because mankind now start to master their environnement but are still dependant, magic is use in order to try control the fate,
art are mostly ritual and ceremonial, art is symbolic and raise with convention, the aestetic is impersonnal, symetric, with some abstract and geometric composition, wich are representation of the spirit, ofthen crude and violent because the spirit are suppose versatile and cruel

then comme the eternity
when society became complex,powerful and stable thanks the rise of technology and science (agriculture, domestication, astronomy, etc...), which free mankind from the direct necessity of survival, this affect the relation then we have with the world.
magic was still here and organize themselves in religion, spirit became god and the stability of life made them shift from entity of chaos to eternal gardian of cosmos (order and stability), man then use ritual to ask god for protection of this stability as their power to influance the nature.
now man has an aspiration to immortality, form became fixe and rigid and well composed, symetrie is the major composition to give the fell of balance and stability.
figure are straight and with unnatural poses, ornementation is very developpe to mark the wealthdom, richness, and greatness

then come the ideal man
the shift start to go from god to human since the society became more powerful
like in greek culture and the concept of the "persona", human start to observe and study nature and develop an thought "pre-scientist", and rational thougt start to arise, but man think there is a unity between god of nature and them, from the veneration of god we shift to veneration of attribute of god like virtue , the idea of the good and the beauty as ideal start to spread as main attribute of god and they insist a lot about notion of harmony (mathematic order) as the perfection of cosmos
then the aestetic is tied to this notion of perfection and ideal (the representation of idea) BUT through human figure which are representation of the observed world AND the universal truth (correction by mathematic criteria) then bring them to mortal condition to the eternal virtue of gods, and praise heroic and athletic which was the model for the individu in the society, if they are stuck with the gods they shown as well the raise of importance of the individu in society

then com the moral man, the universal man, the individual man, the personal man and the analytical man.... t be continued it''s late

this review is important when i came to basis of argument of a definition of art and flaws with common ones

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

quote:

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TechnoGoth:
Once again your repeating the idea that because a game includes graphics it is art. Which not the case anymore then the fact a musem is art because it contains art. Does that mean the text based games arn't games, because they don't have visuals?

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I did NOT say that because games include graphics they that they are considered art. I said that some games can be very astetic and that pegs them under the definition of Graphic Arts. Besides that was only the second half of the idea on the post anyway. You completly skiped over the first part:

Skill (programming) and creative imagination (storyline, 3d models, gameplay, etc) can and does go into the making of at least some games and if the result is aesthetic (visual or otherwise), that would clasify it as art by your own definition, would it not?



[edited by - kars on November 27, 2003 10:24:47 PM]

quote:

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Original post by alnite

quote:

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Original post by TechnoGoth
ld:
Of course live theatre is art but I don''t see how playing a computer game equates to watching a play.
Maybe if you explained further it might make sense.

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Live theatre itself is art. But watching a live theatre is not art, that''s entertainment. The same goes for video games. Making them is art, playing them isn''t.

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I dont think necessarily that making games is art...the game itself is the piece of art...playing it and watching it is entertainment, much like looking at a painting or as you said watching a play.

making a game is just the work and is much like painting or the writing of the play.

<- Digital Explosions ->
"Discipline is my sword, faith is my shield
do not dive into uncertainty, and you may live to reap the rewards" - (Unreal Championship)

Yes. If nothing else, the built-in graphic and musical art can count...

(testing signature)

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Brilliant Bytes Software

games aren''t really an art them selves, but contain alot of art in them.

atleast that''s what the awards say.


Anway, usually they are cut down to
audio
visual
plotline/storyline
gameplay


gameplay being an art in lets say, something trippy like alice, or something creative like that flicking ball thing with that eye cam thing for the ps2.

others are pretty obvious.

Games are art in the same way music today is an art. People focus more on the business aspect now...

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The mathematical sciences particularly exhibit order, symmetry, and limitation; and these are the greatest forms of the beautiful.
--Aristotle (384-322 BC) Metaphysica

The mathematician''s patterns, like the painter''s or the poet''s, must be beautiful; the ideas, like the colors or the words, must fit together in a harmonious way. ... There is no permanent place in the world for ugly mathematics.

G. H. Hardy

Given for one instant an intelligence which could comprehend all the forces by which nature is animated and the respective positions of the beings which compose it, if moreover, this intelligence were vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in the same formula both the movements of the largest bodies in the universe and those of the lightest atom; to it nothing would be uncertain, and the future as the past would be present to its eyes.

Pierre Simon de Laplace (1749-1827)

Hilbert once had a student in mathematics who stopped coming to his lectures, and he was finally told that the young man had gone off to become a poet. Hilbert is reported to have remarked, "I never thought he had enough imagination to be a mathematician."

George Polya

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Most things in life can be looked upon as an art. If you cannot see this, then you merely don''t understand what you are looking at.

Jacob Ensign - aka "Zefrieg"

quote:

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Original post by Zefrieg
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The mathematical sciences particularly exhibit order, symmetry, and limitation; and these are the greatest forms of the beautiful.
--Aristotle (384-322 BC) Metaphysica

The mathematician''s patterns, like the painter''s or the poet''s, must be beautiful; the ideas, like the colors or the words, must fit together in a harmonious way. ... There is no permanent place in the world for ugly mathematics.

G. H. Hardy

Given for one instant an intelligence which could comprehend all the forces by which nature is animated and the respective positions of the beings which compose it, if moreover, this intelligence were vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in the same formula both the movements of the largest bodies in the universe and those of the lightest atom; to it nothing would be uncertain, and the future as the past would be present to its eyes.

Pierre Simon de Laplace (1749-1827)

Hilbert once had a student in mathematics who stopped coming to his lectures, and he was finally told that the young man had gone off to become a poet. Hilbert is reported to have remarked, "I never thought he had enough imagination to be a mathematician."

George Polya

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Most things in life can be looked upon as an art. If you cannot see this, then you merely don''t understand what you are looking at.

Jacob Ensign - aka "Zefrieg"

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GREAT there someone which understood a lot about art here i was struggling with finding a good way to introduce math as well and how to tell some matter (i''m not english) but this help a lot i haven''t the quote here

art is about the subjective relation (themeaning and it''s value) we have with the world
it''s a matter of perception (which differ of science in that scinece seek for objectivity)
art can be express with everything which express this vision
for ex ready made= it''s common object place in a context (the museum) and question the pertinence of museum as the place which define art (it was originally an attempt to show that art is free from this kind of place, the whole story about the first ready made make by duchamp is hilarous, he had send a "urinoir" and as a member of those wich are responsible to select piece for the museum he refuse violently the piece, after that he send a paper to art press saying that there is a scandal that a piece was refuse by the museum because of his novelty and everything go on a while, yes duchamp was a good artist before as well making these ready made an master all technique of art as well, he was known for his painting before)

the fact is the main feature of art was neither the beauty even through age, as i say it was about the subjective relation to the world, art is about subjective conjuring of meaning not making something great

that''s wahy a lot of people says that art is subjective but that''s not mean that the definition of art is subjective (only for selfish fanatic), another point is that art question this relation art it''s the questionning of someone in his relation towards the world, that''s the definition of art, then art is spiritual and the world is seen through sign and symbol

i would come with an ex

the question is not that if game are art
but if we want to make art with game

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>