5010:
Architecture is a difficult example because architecture deals with designing a structure which is purely technical as well as the incorporation of aesthetic elements into the design. So I would say that creation of architecture is not art, however artistic skills are needed to make it aesthetically appealing to people. So architecture combines both into it. However it’s the aesthetic properties that appeal to the audience and not so much the functional aspects. However that doesn't mean games are art simply because architecture maybe considered art. The mere fact that artistic skills are needed to do a job well doesn't mean that that task is then considered art. As far as game design it’s really not a very artistic endeavor it’s a lot of technical work planning out classes and formulas.

Rob Loach:
I'm really not sure if you’re arguing for or against. Also there is nothing to say that a game requires a story, images or even music. Other then that isn't the whole point of the game to be something where the person has control of what’s going on?

Veovis:
What does it mean to be presented as art? Putting it in an artistic environment makes it art? Further does that mean that unless someone goes into an endeavor with the goal of making art they can never create art? Does that mean everything that is considered art even though the creator never had that goal in mind, is not considered art?

liquiddark:
Once again that begs the question does that fact that a game contains artistic element make it art? The audience doesn't really participate in a play they are observers they watch the play unfold. Where as games are about playing a game the aesthetic aspect are just that and they rarely effect the game it self.

Kars:
I believe your stating a misconception and misunderstand the word art has several meanings depending on the context in which it’s used. Its important to understand which meaning is being applied in which circumstance for instance "the art of mining" Doesn't refer to the aesthetic qualities of mining instead art means skill ie "the skill of mining" The term art that I'm associating with games is 5,6,7. In this context I'm trying do discuss whether or not games are the same thing as fine arts or literature.

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Writer, Programer, Cook, I'm a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document



[edited by - TechnoGoth on November 26, 2003 1:21:44 AM]

TechnoGod:

I personally think and believe that architecture is Art. But before you go ahead and quote me with a response, could you please state what YOUR definition of Art is?

When you answer that, I will be able to let you know if games are Art accoriding to your world.

My idea of art clearly includes games. Personally, I don''t think is a coincidence that one of the legendary designers, Shigeru Miyamoto started as the first artist at nintendo in the early 80s.

" Video Games are bad for you? That''s what they said about Rock ''N'' Roll. " - miyamoto

So what is art?...once that''s answered we can then move the discussion along. Otherwise, this will turn into a long tread of "no that''s not what I mean".


**************
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.

-Albert Einstein

Games are definitely art. I think that any game programmer who says it is not an art is in the wrong field (directed at the AP).

It's like saying a realistic painting isn't art because all it does is imitate real-life, which isn't true at all. Games are very much like realistic paintings in that they imitate real-life (in exaggerated ways, of course).

In my opinion, programming, in general, is not only scientific but also very artistic. I suppose anyone would take pride in their profession, but programming is an accumulation of so many different ideas and thinking that's hard to say that it's not an artform.

[edited by - JasonA on November 26, 2003 1:44:35 AM]

We all would aggree that novels fall into art right? Well if i might take a little help from Star Trek, (at least the voyager episodes) there was the invention of Holonovels. They were interactive stories. But how are they different from computer games? The monsters and people and scenery would possibly fall under art but maybe not. Same with sounds. But the plot could be art. It''s basically a story, where you actually get to see and interact with the surroundings.

What about a PC card game or chess game? That I would say no. Since I only know of one chess game out of many that actually has a storyline. It might depend on the type of game. I''d say most singleplayer games have a story and therefore could be art. Whether or not it''s good is a different matter, it''s still art. Even if it''s stolen or copied. It just means it''s stolen, copied, or just play bad art.

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Original post by TechnoGoth
alnite:
True the play is the art but the audience goes to the play to appreciate the art in the same way as you would look at painting to appreciate the painting. That doesn''t mean its not also a form of enterainment. Again is creating a game an art form? The fact that you need to be a skilled designer does not mean what your doing is artistic. In fact a socilogist with a math background would most like be able design very good games, but that doesn''t mean they consider what there doing an art form.

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It depends on the person to appreciate what he sees. Some people can appreciate the art of live theatre show, while some others not. I myself started to appreciate live theatre shows after I took a theatre art class, and realized how much work these people have done to make the production come alive and how truly artistic it is!

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In fact a socilogist with a math background would most like be able design very good games, but that doesn''t mean they consider what there doing an art form.

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A sociologist graduate with a math background doesn''t mean he can''t be artistic . He could probably be a hobbyist artist as well.

You really have to know what designing a game is. It is not just ''let''s make a Quake remake with more aliens and bigger guns!'' or ''let''s make a boss with a big head that throws giant bananas that explode when they hit the ground.'' There are more than that! A good designer should think about how players see the game psychologically, especially in RPGs. What they perceive, what they feel, and what they hear at a particular instance. I am talking about something like ''we should put violet ambient light in room X to give more eerie feeling, and gradually change it to red to give a sad and rage feeling when the princess stab herself because I want the players feel the emotion as I am feeling it right now. It''s gotta be sad and angry too.'' As a matter of fact, it is what they do in live theatre as well. They just don''t throw out actors and play it out straight from the script. They also consider the props, textures, clothing, lighting, sound and everything so that the emotion delivered to the audience matches the one on the script, or as visualized by the director.

It, of course, depends on the game also. In games like Quake where you just pass grenades to aliens, without storyline or anything or maybe a flat one, can''t be considered art. The art part is only the artworks of the artists and musician. The rest of them are mostly technical. But in RPG games with good storylines, that definitely is art. How many of you here have played video games that emotionally affected you? *me raises hand*

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Original post by JasonA
In my opinion, programming, in general, is not only scientific but also very artistic. I suppose anyone would take pride in their profession, but programming is an accumulation of so many different ideas and thinking that's hard to say that it's not an artform.

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Programming is not art, it is so technical. Think about it, do you think somebody else, not a computer geek nor he understands any programming language, can appreciate your new fibonacci algorithm? No. Do you put your emotion into when you are coding? No. If somebody tells two programmers to make him a code that does a merge sort, how big is the chance these two programmers will use and write the same algorithm? Pretty large.

Something is art because it is unique. If somebody tells us to draw him a tree, my tree is different than your tree. It is very unlikely we draw the same exact tree. That is art...because it sooo unique!



[edited by - alnite on November 26, 2003 6:04:36 AM]

Technogoth:

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think about this for a moment is a brick art? If I wrap the brick in the mona lisa have I changed the brick? Does that now make it art? or is it still just a brick wrapped in a painting?

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Again, it''s a subjective viewpoint. A mason is very likely to appreciate certain subtleties in the brick that the rest of us might find incredibly mundane and boring. If you wrap that brick in the Mona Lisa, are you trying to make a statement? Are you displaying it for the world to see and opine on? Then yes, it becomes art.

Is it GOOD art? That''s an entirely different question.

Art simply is . It''s completely irrelevant if the crowded masses don''t appreciate it, or "get it", or like it at all - because it''s a labour of love (or pain) for the creator. You don''t ask the public if the object in question is art, you ask the person who made it.

I can recall seeing a particular painting at the MOMA here in NY and staring at it for a good 5 minutes, trying to understand what everyone else saw in it to make it art. It was black paint on canvas, with a cross - painted in a slightly different shade of black - within. I frowned, I peered, I hemmed and hawed and finally I shrugged and walked away. I didn''t understand it, it made absolutely no sense to me - but I didn''t have to understand it or appreciate it to call it art.

allnite:

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Programming is not art, it is so technical. Think about it, do you think somebody else, not a computer geek nor he understands any programming language, can appreciate your new fibonacci algorithm? No. Do you put your emotion into when you are coding? No.

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Then I truly pity you, if that''s what you honestly believe. Can you tell me you''ve never had a sudden inspiration in the middle of the night about some piece of code you''ve been struggling over, leaped to your keyboard and spent the rest of the night in fevered typing and writing? Been excited as you drew close to finishing, almost quivering with anticipation?

Others have said it on this thread. Architecture is mechanical, and yet we don''t question whether it is art or not. Engineering is mechanical and technical, but again - we don''t question whether the finished product is considered art. We''ve built museums specifically to display eye-pleasing ergonomic designs for furniture, cars, vacuum cleaners, computer cases, pens, coffee mugs, cookware...

...so why are we questioning whether a video game can be considered art?

hmm more responses, there seems to be trend of people asking the same question over and over again and that is, what do I think art is? As I pointed out in earlier responses I would associate art with this definition supplied by Webster.

4 a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced b (1) : FINE ARTS (2) : one of the fine arts (3) : a graphic art

Perhaps I should ask the rest of you want do you think is art in terms of a product of artistic skills? How do games fit into that definition, bearing in mind the games story, its pictures and music can all be considered art but that does not mean a game is art simply because it includes them. A game with haunting music and a deep plot on the meaning of life isn''t necessarily art since what you’re referring to as art is really the story and visuals.

momoMonkey:
It is important that we all talk about art in the same terms in order justify one way or another whether or not games are art. But as far as architecture goes while I personally find many beautiful examples of architecture that doesn''t mean architecture is art. Simply because architecture deals primarily with technical specifications. That doesn''t mean an artist can''t be an architect in fact in order to do it well requires an artistic eye in order to make the final product visually appealing. But that doesn''t mean that someone with no artistic talent can''t be a successful architecture.

It goes to the fact that many things in life require a broad range of skills, artistic skills, problem solving, creativity, analytical ability, and others. All go into making the difference between doing a job and doing a job well.

JasonA:
I''m not sure what programming you''ve done, but there really isn''t much in the way of artistic elements to programming. It is a purely technical and problem solving endeavor. I think your making the mistake of combining programming and designing, programming is solely technical. While designing requires a broad range of skills to do well. In fact a complete and accurate design should allow any programmer to pick it up and program, provided they have the technical skills to do so.

trapdoor:
Since holodecks don''t exist except purely in the realm of science fiction. I don''t think we have a complete enough understanding to comment. But from what I assume is that the holonovels are just using holodecks as a new form of media used to express a work of literature. The interactive elements are just computers incorporation of the users’ actions into the story. Sort of like a malleable book or advanced choose your own adventure.

" It might depend on the type of game. I''d say most singleplayer games have a story and therefore could be art. "
Art you really saying that the story is art? And the game is really just medium to present the story to an individual? After all the game isn''t the story the story is just an aspect of the game.

alnite:

What you''ve mentioned as being game design is really only a part of the process the majority of the design consist of creating technical documents, planning and organizing game elements, devising formulas, creation of physics models and so on. You''ve also stated a point mentioned by several others. "But in RPG games with good storylines, that definitely is art." Aren’t you really referring to the storyline as art and not the game? Couldn''t you in fact take the same story and turn it into a book or film and get the same artistic value you’re associating with the game?


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Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document

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Original post by TechnoGoth
The audience doesn''t really participate in a play they are observers they watch the play unfold.

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I would have a hard time believing you''ve ever been on stage. I''ve spent nearly 10 years of my life involved with live theatre, and I can tell you with total certainty that this is a total misstatement. The audience changes the whole character of a production. The superficial elements don''t change, unless it''s improv theatre (is improv art? How about the various improv hybrids?), but the artistry certainly does. With games, this is taken to the logical limit.

ld

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Original post by TechnoGoth
I think your making the mistake of combining programming and designing, programming is solely technical.

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From many people''s perspective, programming IS design.

ld