I agree with Dauntless that many of the obvious problems with cRPGs have been solved by various pnpRPGs. My biggest misgiving at the moment is that pnpRPGs appear to be devolving since Wizards bought out TSR. Nowadays, it seems that every new RPG automatically uses the Wizards d20 system - which, while a perfectly good system, does have its own limitations and blind spots.

A good example of a non-level-based RPG system used to be the Call fo Cthulhu system, where your character improved based on successful use of individual skills, but the most recent Call of Cthulhu RPG now uses d20 Modern rules (with appropriate detail tweaks).

Prior to 3rd edition D&D and the d20 system, even AD&D (2nd edition) had a fair degree of versatility in the form of optional modules that could be mixed and matched - alternate magic systems, alternate combat systems, etc.

So, while I agree with Dauntless that looking at related games in other media would unlock largely untapped design resources, at least for RPGs, historical research is needed rather than just looking at the currently available products (for which you might as well just look at Neverwinter Nights, Icewind Dale, etc)

I think that part of the reason for the lack of progress gameplay wise in RPGs. Is the reliance on using PnPRPGs rules and methodolgy. When what designers should be working on is designing new methodoligies and rules that more closely relate to advantages and disadvantages that a computer offers. For instance in a pnpRPG normally character stats and dice rolls are kept to minium to keep the game imersive. But thats not something a computer has to worry about. In fact CRPG could have 200 character attributes and invole 20 calculations per action. Something not appropriete to PNPRPGs. So may we should stop relying on techniques that are more suited for other mediums.

-----------------------------------------------------
Writer, Programer, Cook, I''m a Jack of all Trades
Current Design project
Chaos Factor Design Document

I agree that computers should offer more capability than PPRPG''s for game mechanics, but I think a designer could do far worse than look at them for inspiration.

I made a post in another thread about how computers could offer significant data tracking advantages as well as computational modeling. For example, how many games offer combat modifiers based on the length and mass of a weapon? How many games modify a character''s initiative based on the weapon used? Heck, how many games even implement a margin of success system for damage wherein whomever succeeds at their action better (be it attacker or defender) they get a bonus to follow-up actions (if it''s an attacker, and he rolls significantly better than the defender, then this means that he struck his blow more accurately delivering either a more deadly blow, or changing the hit location).

How many games implement personality traits like the Chivalry traits from Pendragon, or the Spiritual attributes from The Riddle of Steel which in turn affect the character''s abilities depending on the circumstances (for example, in The Riddle of Steel, a character with a high Love spiritual attribute defined as a love for an NPC can get die-roll benefits when his love is in danger). Being able to go beyond the mere physical modeling of a character via skills, attributes, equipments and talents is what true role playing should be about. And I think a computer should be able to handle this.

But since the majority of game designers seem to think that roleplaying begins and ends with something similar to the d20 system, that little progress is made.

I don''t agree that there''s no progress.
Praetorians is quite different. The terrain plays a big role - there aren''t much upgrade options - but it''s very strategic.

For me it looks like a well designed and implemented product, which is RTS but not a simple copy of existing, working concepts.

Funny.

When desinging what I called then my "Masterpeice", I asked myself the same question back in the begining of 2000. Since then, Morpheus: Keeper of Dreams is doing amazingly well. I will share you my awnser I conceaved 4 years ago...

The real reson why RPGs (as well as RTS) are getting repetitive is because the desingers have troble getting out of there own steriotypes. Think about it. Most RPGs have all thease same trends in terms of design, atmospheare, and story that its realy becoming fucking repetitive!

Basicaly:

Console RPGs:

Japanese Influenced. Cute, vuptiouls women with big-boobs. Big eyes. Cute mascot. Big macho cool heros. Misteryous villans. Mix of Fantasy witn Sci-Fi. Overexagerate wepons. Soap Opera-ish story.

Ex. Final Fantasy Series

PC RPGs:

Tolkin/D&D based. Beaffy warriors. Amazon like vixens. Mithilogical creatures. B-Movie feel. Redundent Midevil Magic system.

Ex. D&D, Baldures Gate, Diablo, ect.

So, What I have done?

I threw out all the steriotipical crap out the window, and put my own spin on the skellion of what makes an RPG.

Ex.

Most games Magic system is rooted in a Norse/Midevil based system. "Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, Light, Dark."

My games "Magic" is based on Heat, Gravity, Presure, Need to Eat, Inerta, ect.

And thats only the tip of the Iceburg...

Morpheus: Keeper of Dreams

A game that will change the way you precive RPG Games forever...

Coming Soon to PC!

I didn''t yet see anyone propose the idea that the possibility space is exhausted. Allow me to at least posit the outside chance that these games have been completely explored in gameplay terms. You can create games that do things significantly differently, but they will no longer be RPGs and RTSs. To Wit: Deus Ex. Vampire. Warcraft III.

ld

I thought this thread was dead? Anyhow, why even worry about the particular genre you are putting the game in, and work on the game play. Who cares if your game is a wargame, or an RTS, if its good, people will buy it, if not, they wont.

Whoo... I haven''t been around here in AGES .

I could cite my game, which I think has some really nifty new concepts, but I''ve done that too much in the past, and it really hasn''t evolved any since I last posted here several months ago. I mean, I''ve come up with tons of new ideas, but they''re not going in Pentaverse, because they don''t belong in Pentaverse...

I don''t think that RPGs are terribly static... I mean, games are all over the place, if you ask me. Some games still resemble first-ed D&D more than anything else, whereas many others are genre-pushing, completely non-traditional experiences. And then most people aren''t going to like them. How many people liked Unlimited SaGa, for example? It was too odd for most RPGers to relate to. Similar problems will arise nearly every time that game designers are too original. So either go ahead and make the game the way you want to... OR you can make it traditional as possible so it sells decently... OR you can find the fine balance, which tends to be the most successful option.

That''s it for now. If none of this makes sense, then it''s because I need to get more sleep.