blahmaster
More like an indicator just like an IQ test. Game dev schools don’t do that since we would be seeing their results here. I seen the courses and they are laughable.
The point is if you know where you are you know how much more you can do.

Did you get my point about the 2 fighter? Meaning people should try to make the best of what they have to squeeze every ounce of what can be done to stretch their creative abilities. It’s easy to squeeze a glass of orange juice with 4 oranges but the point it to try to squeeze as much as they can out of 1, you know? I even ask people to try and think of something I didn’t say I will do it all and I am better, I just gave an example to try and spark some motivation.

-------------------- syn_apse
u say "we? who the hell is we?"

meaning we the people of GD viewing your rants.

u say "i'm being evaluated? by who? "

You are kidding right? Meaning that you evaluating the suggestion that was presented, which you don't care as u said. I dont think I need to mention again what you said since you just proved me right.
take a chill pill.

u say "you are asking people to prove themselves to you,…. narcisstic prick. speaks for everyone. stands in judgement."

Why do you keep asking when you don’t care and read everything wrong to your negative ways? Get real kid and if you read it you would know better than to assume and misconstrue things. You should take your own advice you know.

u say "no sir, good luck to you."
Thank you

[edited by - warsong on October 15, 2003 1:24:49 AM]

meh...

a person with a small vocuabulary is not more creative than someone with a large one simply because he has to do more with less. he should learn those words anyways and then implement them as needed. otherwise he''s ignorant.

quote: Original post by Warsong
Meaning the you evaluating the suggestion thatw as ptresented that your don''t care.

um...

quote: Original post by syn_apse
meh...
a person with a small vocuabulary is not more creative than someone with a large one simply because he has to do more with less. he should learn those words anyways and then implement them as needed. otherwise he''s ignorant.

Also the honeymooners that had 2 acts in 1 room for 30 min has more quality entertainment for the entire family, than a show like law and order with violent with 100 people that is good for a few.

words of wisdom
Profanity is for those who lack intelligence and imagination to otherwise express them selves.

though i see the point of your post.
i believe the argument you propose is flawed.

less does not mean more.
it would be like saying that a game programmer who makes a fun game using NES technology is a better game programmer than one who does the same thing using OpenGL targeted to a P4 class computer, which is not true.

though i admit that some believe that you need the latest and greatest in technology to make a fun game or even one worth making. this obviously is not true. if anything game design IMHO concerns one important thing, GAMEPLAY. once that is established and well executed then everything else falls into place (well it should anyway ).

i think a better way to exercise the game design muscles, again IMHO, is to improve on games, whether good or bad, and EXPLAIN why you as the designer think that it is necessary addition. restricting resources to flex your creative muscles seems to be a contradiction in terms as well as philosophy.

i think you need to formulate or better yet clearly and concisely explain your position when designing your own games. what tools, rules, standards do you follow? do you purposely target lower end machines to emphasize gameplay and content than graphics? or do you just design to envelope the gamer into a world that unfolds as he plays therefore keeping him involved and motivating him to master the rules and skills your game presents to him?

but as far as tests, this discipline of game development is too subjective to do such a thing. maybe you can have contests, but not tests.

hopefully i am as clear and concise as needed.

[edited by - Alpha_ProgDes on October 15, 2003 1:21:30 AM]

quote: Original post by Warsong
blahmaster
More like an indicator just like an IQ test. Game dev schools don’t do that since we would be seeing their results here. I seen the courses and they are laughable.
The point is if you know where you are you know how much more you can do.

Did you get my point about the 2 fighter? Meaning people should try to make the best of what they have to squeeze every ounce of what can be done to stretch their creative abilities. It’s easy to squeeze a glass of orange juice with 4 oranges but the point it to try to squeeze as much as they can out of 1, you know? I even ask people to try and think of something I didn’t say I will do it all and I am better, I just gave an example to try and spark some motivation.

-------------------- syn_apse
u say "we? who the hell is we?"

meaning we the people of GD viewing your rants.

u say "i'm being evaluated? by who? "

You are kidding right? Meaning the you evaluating the suggestion thatw as ptresented that your don't care. I dont think i need to mention again what you said since you just proved me right.
take a chill pill.

u say "you are asking people to prove themselves to you,…. narcisstic prick. speaks for everyone. stands in judgement."

Why do you keep asking when you don’t care and read everything wrong to your negative ways? Get real kid and if you read it you would know better than to assume and misconstrue things. You should take your own advice you know.

u say "no sir, good luck to you."

Thank you

[edited by - warsong on October 15, 2003 1:01:45 AM]

From what I can infer you haven't gone to a game school so I don't think you should judge them harshly. Furthermore, even if they are not quality schools, they still must have done some work to at least give a starting ground for this subject.

Well, if you really want to pursue this topic you must ask yourself these questions. What is the criteria? For example, you are giving a writing assignment. Your grade is based on the lack of grammatical errors, conciseness, style, etc. What's the criteria for a game design exercise? I don't know. That's why it's better we get some of this information from someone who has taken a game design class.

Personally, the whole idea of a game design test seems pretty impractical. Have you read Chris Crawford on game design? He talks about how he would finish a game, and then leave a couple of months to just polish it. Also, I remember reading something about Miyamoto saying something about one of his newer games and how he didn't find it any fun once it was functionally ready. It took him some months before it actually became fun. The point is let's say you do have this exercise where you have to make a game better. Someone comes up with some unique ideas to improve the game. If this person never makes this game then we will never really know if it ever was fun. Also, I think in Game Architecture and Design they say that a game design idea could seem like the most fun idea ever, but once made it sometimes isn't.


[edited by - BlahMaster on October 15, 2003 1:58:17 AM]

quote: Original post by Warsong Profanity is for those who lack intelligence and imagination to otherwise express them selves.

shut the fuck up

quote: Original post by Warsong
Also the honeymooners that had 2 acts in 1 room for 30 min has more quality entertainment for the entire family, than a show like law and order with violent with 100 people that is good for a few.

objectivity, meet subjectivity. die objectivity, die!

objectivity is dead, if it were ever alive to begin with. what is entertaining to me is not necessarily entertaining to you, and vice versa. and that is the problem with your game design test. such a test would limit the designer''s creativity, not expand it. you are trying to simplify things by adding rules.

quote: Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
though i see the point of your post.
i believe .....
[edited by - Alpha_ProgDes on October 15, 2003 1:21:30 AM]

Alpha_ProgDes
Let me correct your analogy in what I imply
it would be like saying that a game programmer who makes a fun game using NES technology is a game “DESIGNER” (not programmer) than one who does the same thing using OpenGL targeted to a P4 class computer “with high end graphics which gets the same game play results”
Pound for pound Tetris made more with less resources than the average million $ budget games.

Restricting ideas in a practice is to try to make the person squeeze ideas more. If we had abundant resources we cant test out self and try to make our self better. Physic competitions do this a lot to restrict the physic student to rules to see how creative their minds can be. Just like the show MacGyver how the MacGyver shows how making a bright light with chemicals found in the bathroom. The point is you would want a guy like MacGyver around to find the most creative solution. If he can do something with nothing imagine what he can do with something, which that goes for designers as well.

I would not be a great game designer if I bought the right if they invented the Star Treck haladeck that make 3D realistic world. I would not be better artist than Divinchi if I copy and edit a painting I found on the net to have a computer generate landscape for me and I know nothing about art. I can’t be a great marksman if I hire someone else to do the work for me. That’s how I see it.

Your reason in how to be better designer is good as well. Which helps people think and some did come with good ideas in the last post about people trying to make a better pong to give them a work as well.

For instance Nintendo’s Miyamoto they say works with colors boxes and plays with them to see how the game play would go. To make the red block jump on the green block and see if that would work and then later on fill in the gaps by adding story, art, sound, level layout, and more rules. If he did it backwards and though of sounds first then art and story and last game play then he would be like most games out which don’t go well. This is the point I am trying to make that people should make a great game out of something with close to nothing and if you can add more thing and try to get more info from that and then more and more and so on until u squeeze out every aspect of idea and decide what you want and what you don’t. Some people are afraid of a challenge and would rather attack than think it out. But you said it well and I congratulate you and I hope you got a bit of info.

I think you can do a test but no one actually tried. It’s like how much creativity does one have in a certain type of game. If I came with 20 ideas to remake pong and you like it that’s at least is a number I gave you and it’s an indicator. If I can a great game with 1 button then I would have an easier time creating a game with 2 times the abilities. The restriction isn’t to hinder your design ability but to try to make you think of what else. If you were stuck on a small sandy island and you only had matches string and a few logs what can you do? I am not restricting you I am trying to make you think more. You wouldn’t have to think if you have a boat already and a spot light to get help and get off the island. If we place your self in a comfortable place then we would not try to do the best since we gotten soft in some say sometimes.

Yeas I said a lot and I didn’t want to say so much at first because some have a short attention span. If you can simplify it then by all means which I have been asking people to come with something better than me because I know I am not expressing it well and that I know others can.

If we seriously want to talk about testing game design ability, then we have to discuss exactly what abilities are needed in a "perfect game designer," quantify them, and rank them in order of importance, and then come up with methods of testing them.

Here are some starting points:

-Creativity

This is a "duh" answer - too bad it''s so hard to measure.

-Mathematical intuition, probably with a focus in logic

Games are inherently mathematical because they''re based around patterns we can identify and act upon, the same concept that math is based on - so someone who comes up with a game will need to have a good mathematical intuition - which is different from simple problem-solving ability(plenty of genius mathematicians need help coming up with concepts and problems to solve that they can write papers on) - to determine when the gameplay will turn out favorable to his goals; since games are primarily rule-based systems, logic is -- in a logical sense -- most important in helping our perfect designer''s reasoning. Ability to abstract the real world would help too, but probably not as much as the first.

-A highly diverse skill set, anything could help

While obviously, things like writing, drawing, and programming are helpful to work with the development team, our designer has to know something about our world that other people can relate to. If he knows things most people don''t(history, literature, anthropology...), he can often directly apply his knowledge into a video game''s design.

Before we move on to any sort of testing, we have to agree that this, or something like this, could constitute a "perfect game designer."