RuneLancer,

Your example with QBasic is really a good example of why older tech SHOULD die. Java''s a much better starting point, it''s still free, and it''s a useful environment for actually producing content. Coding in an older language just to do it isn''t really serving any purpose.

In exactly the same way, using Burger Time graphics isn''t really helping, because you can get far better results with about the same investment of time and energy. Ditto platformer physics, Dune II AI, and King''s Quest sound.

New tech should become the norm, at a code level. That''s what makes the game coder''s life more interesting. Without that continuous challenge the industry would probably hemhorrage personnel to an even greater degree than it already does.

Similarly, for AAA titles, the player should get what they want. What they seem to want is high-end graphics, furious gameplay, fair opponents, Dolby Surround Sound, and a fun game. Lacking one of these isn''t going to kill a game, but lacking several of them probably will, for a triple-A title. Play Insaniquarium for a good example of how to make a great lower-end title with older technologies.

ld

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Original post by liquiddark
New tech should become the norm, at a code level. That's what makes the game coder's life more interesting. Without that continuous challenge the industry would probably hemhorrage personnel to an even greater degree than it already does.

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So basically, ending up with 3D games so easy to design anyone can get a copy of the DirectX SDK and hack up something workable in a half hour is a challenge?

I remember a day when rotating cube demos (sometimes with fire effects, since it was a fad and all) were considered acheivements. It was a time when people would come up with truly impressive stuff that couldn't be hacked up in a few minutes. A time when programming was about skill, not just stuffing code into a compiler that'll make use of APIs to magically take care of the challenging part.

What about when we'll have DirectAI? Or DirectShader? Or some equivalent higher-level concept reduced to ashes? We'll move on to higher concepts? Reminds me of that whole Independance Day thing... we abuse a ressource until it becomes dead then move on to the next...

I'm all for new challenges and new discoveries. Heck, we wouldn't get anywhere if we never tried to move ahead and didn't come up with ways of saving time and code. But destroying old ones is where I draw the line. This is regression at the cost of performance. You can maintain your opinion that the world should ditch old technologies all you want, I'm gonna go make myself coffee and work on a DOS assembly waterfall graphic demo. Your talk of close-mindedness is pretty much invalidated by your post: you fail to take into account in your argumentation that despite you feeling oldschool things are no longer needed, there still are people who live for this sort of stuff. While letting technology advance is good for the business, trying to suppress older ones damages the interests of quite a lot of other people.

Meh, I don't mean to pick a fight (on a messageboard of all places) so I'll say this: some people still like older technologies irrelevant of what you personally feel towards them. Trying to destroy these in favor of newer technologies is like deciding to remove, say, RPGs and replacing them with FPSes. Some people like FPSes. A lot do. And heck, it's all good. But when you start favoring one group and let the other group drop in your favor, that's just a pain for group #2. Technology should advance as time goes on but that's no reason to forever ditch the older stuff. In my humble (and biased ^-^) opionion, there's nothing better than a 2D oldschool cliché RPG. Why not go for the much better full-motion voice-acted 3D original RPG? Because I just like 2D oldschool cliché RPGs, no reason. Not because they're better in some way, I just like them. Sadly, they can't be found on consoles anymore so I guess all's I can do is be unsatisfied and either force myself to enjoy something I don't or simply give up on RPGs...

How does QBasic factor into this? Yes, you hit a soft spot saying QBasic should vanish into the mists of time and I definitively did NOT take kindly to it. Granted, it's old. Heck, it's slow and limited. I can definitively get 2000 particles animated at full-speed in C++ and don't run into memory issues. But who cares? It's called a preference. It's something people have that sometimes isn't the same as yours. If we'd remove C++ to cater to the desires of these people, though, we'd be making a grave mistake. But if we remove QBasic, we're harming some people too. And good god, if the QBasic community ever vanished through someone's actions, you can bet the harming wouldn't just affect disgruntled oldschool programmers. Muhaha :>

[edited by - RuneLancer on October 9, 2003 12:52:38 PM]

One note: I no longer know what the thread is about, which is usually the first sign that it''s time to stop the discussion. I do want to make a few points first to see if things can be turned around.

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Original post by RuneLancer
So basically, ending up with 3D games so easy to design anyone can get a copy of the DirectX SDK and hack up something workable in a half hour is a challenge?

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If it means that good demos are even more impressive? Hell yeah. Have you seen some of the stuff indies and sceners are turning out? It''s phenomenal what can be done.

We had a Microsoft consultant come in for a session on architecture recently, and he came up with an extremely applicable metaphor: What you''re talking about is plumbing. Windows abounds with pre-written plumbing code, some of it very ugly. Regardless, it comes with that code on the system, reliably, every time. Linux, for example, does not. The only constant about distros is that they''re all catering to a pathologically unique set of individuals, and relying on a particular capability is difficult or impossible. Moreover, the sets of tools which do exist do not stretch very far when trying to build systems of consequence.

In games, this translates to basic pathfinding, graphical presentation, sound manipulation, compression, security, obfuscation, networking, physics, and so on. Each of these by itself can be bought and paid for, and you''ll get a pretty good system - not totally perfect, but good enough to build on in almost all circumstances. Some coders hate to have to use these codebases because they hate other people''s code. That''s not professional, but it is very very personal, which is often just as important. I am not one of those people. I certainly could have been, but I spend far too much of my time rewriting basic plumbing code for enterprise apps to be a fan of having to rewrite systems as basic as the windowing system or the network connection topology.

I work with people who are all over the map in terms of capability and professional maturity, and those two vary widely and independently. I consider myself above-average in terms of capability, and if I were handed a spec for a system I could almost certainly build it. I do not consider myself super-human, however, and that means that I have to be a professional. So when someone else gets that wireless/embedded project I''ve been salivating over, I get back to whatever annoying item is next on my priority list. I think you''ll find that most professionals work more or less the same way. Moreover, although many of us would like to build the next Quake/Unreal engine, not everyone can be Carmack, and not everyone can be Sweeney. Ergo, most of us find other fun bits, and we build those.

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A time when programming was about skill, not just stuffing code into a compiler that''ll make use of APIs to magically take care of the challenging part.

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Try this.

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What about when we''ll have DirectAI? Or DirectShader? Or some equivalent higher-level concept reduced to ashes? We''ll move on to higher concepts? Reminds me of that whole Independance Day thing... we abuse a ressource until it becomes dead then move on to the next...

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Yes. And not only that, but the games will get better because more people can make them. In fact, Rendermonkey and Cg are both doing exactly this to the shader world. Anyone who works in the field is loving it.

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You can maintain your opinion that the world should ditch old technologies all you want, I''m gonna go make myself coffee and work on a DOS assembly waterfall graphic demo.

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It''ll never go away

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Your talk of close-mindedness is pretty much invalidated

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I''m not talking about closed-mindedness anywhere in this thread. That was someone else.

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While letting technology advance is good for the business, trying to suppress older ones damages the interests of quite a lot of other people.

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In the same breath, trying to catcall new tech because you have an interest in old ones is counterproductive and unfair to entrants into the arena. Someone writing a spinning cube demo expecting a job in today''s market is probably going to be disappointed.

I don''t really see anyone overtly suppressing Modula, for example. I *do* see people hating it, for all kinds of good reasons.

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some people still like older technologies irrelevant of what you personally feel towards them. Trying to destroy these in favor of newer technologies is like deciding to remove, say, RPGs and replacing them with FPSes.

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Replacing 2d RPGs with FPSes, perhaps. Deus Ex, however, did a marvellous job of replacing the standard 3d RPG with an FPS (although I still find it tedious at times). Then again, i didn''t enjoy Final Fantasy after #3, so that proves nothing.

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Why not go for the much better full-motion voice-acted 3D original RPG? Because I just like 2D oldschool cliché RPGs, no reason. Not because they''re better in some way, I just like them. Sadly, they can''t be found on consoles anymore so I guess all''s I can do is be unsatisfied and either force myself to enjoy something I don''t or simply give up on RPGs...

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I call that personal growth, and believe it''s a wonderful thing. Ico, Deus Ex, and their kin all show what an RPG can become.

As to QBasic, I won''t get deep into the argument, except to say this: I''m thanking whatever powers run the universe that my employer is moving out of that world altogether. Man did I ever hate Basic. You''re right - lots of people would be affected. I hold a strong belief, however, that it would be much to their benefit. I won''t argue the point; if you truly love the language we are varelse, and can never be known to one another.

ld

I see no point in furthering this. Instead of writing long elaborate paragraphs, I''ll keep it short and to the point.

Some people like it oldschool, some don''t.
Productivity is not an issue when it comes to personal preferences.
Productivity is an issue when it comes to catering to the needs of the majority of the population.
Productivity arises out of better technologies. By inference, better technologies are required to cater to the needs of the majority of the population.
The above is because the majority of the population is fickle and has growing needs, wanting things that are "Better" and "More performant".
The above negatively affects the minor (yet still important) population which still appreciates things as they were before and does not wish to see them end.
The entire issue I''m debating is how this minor group finds itself negatively affected by the fickle needs of the major group.
Technology can only progress and, sadly, what it leaves in its wake is left to rot.
There is no turning back.
This is considered progress.

I''d also like to appoligise for the mix-up regarding close-mindedness. ''Fraid I got two posts mixed up. ^^;

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