Diablo is a very crude visual Roguelike. While it had a few of the ''defined'' roguelike elements(a centralized dungeon, randomized levels, and randomly occuring ''named'' monsters, it bears little resemblence to the great roguelikes: ADOM, NetHack, Angband.

Roguelikes, while defined most notably by their use of ASCII graphics, can be taken apart even more by their actual gameplay characteristics.

-A Centralized Dungeon that grows more difficult with every level: NetHack and Angband do this simply, ADOM has /many/ seperate dungeons, but all follow this basic rule.

-Highly strategic turn-based combat and movement system. Every step counts in roguelikes, and many players have lost characters because they accidentally wasted a turn while fighting a monster a bit powerful for them.

-Once Chance Games. If you die, you die, no built-in ability to save a character amongst many different savefiles. Saving quits the game safely, Quitting or death will quit and cause the character''s file to be deleted.

-Addictiveness. For some reason, most geek-types seem to find some roguelike that just /works/ for them, and the quote comes up in fortune: "Real Coders work better while playing Rogue". I''m an ADOM man, myself, and I can''t stop playing it some nights.

- It''s a life''s work
-ryan@lecherousjester.com

Side note: anyone remember an old computer game called Ragnarok (not the online thing with anime lookin dudes)? It was basically like NetHack except parts of it were outdoors, and it was based on Norse mythology. You started out in an area that had a mostly deserted town in it, except for the shopkeeper, and had to survive wild animals until you could find this dungeon entrance. There was also that folded up ship you could get but I never used it after discovering that the area it took you to was hard as hell. There were all sorts of neat things like scrolls that could turn you into weird critters or make it so that all the items would attack you, and if for instance you had a fireball wand you might end up burning up a tree with it. I never got very far in it, but I sure died in some creative ways. And you''ve never lived until you''ve actually had a jolt of fear when some gold pieces start chasing you around.

It wasn''t an RPG per say, but the PSX game Megaman Legends had a centralized dungeon underneath the island the whole game took place on. It was interesting in that each area looked to be self contained, but as the game progressed, they all interconnected and there were areas that had older areas as part of them.

Rather then just a maze extending downward for infinity, it might serve better to design one huge maze in the same style, with areas locked off according to progression throughout the game.

well it seems that people enjoy dungeons as long as there is a point to them as well they like secerts, hidden rooms, treasue and areas. So I''ll defently make apoint of including plenty of those.


The last point gave me an idea. Would be like to see a situation where there a set of four seeminly seperate dungeons. But once you being to explore them you discover that infact there is just one big dungeon. Filled with interconnecting passage ways that allow access to other parts of the dungeons. You would also be able to open perform events in one area that effect another.

In depth example:
A desert Town:
Four dungeons
1)Abadoned Coal mine at the edge of town
2)the catacombs beneth the church
3)the town well
4)A lost city buried beanth the town.

the 4 areas at first seem seperate but they are in fact all connected. For instance a seal vault within the catacombs can be entered by breakthrough a weakend wall inside the mine. Also inorder to explore deep into the well would require draininng it however doing that will flood part of the mine.

Whether or not the dungeon crawl is enjoyable is completely dependant on how the game handles it''s dungeons. For example:

- Gradia 2: (Oh no, another dungeon). All the walls and floors looked identical within a dungeon, so it is very easy to get lost. Random fights, and camera control left entirely up to the player make it too easy to get mixed up which way you are supposed to be headed. Minimal puzzles, for anyone who played the game, the dungeon near the end with the orbs that unlocked doors was the best of the lot, because it was the only dungeon that wasn''t starightforward. (Just so it doesn''t sound like I hated this game altogether, the battle system was amazing, and the boss fights at the end of the dungeons made the crawl worth the while).

- Golden Sun 1/2: (Yes, Another amazing dungeon). These dungeons are awesome. Each and everyone is unique, but at the same time, you know a bit of what to expect once you get into the game''s style. For example, the four towers are obviously all upward moving. The four rocks (all in the second game) make you scale the rock first, then dive down into the inside. The puzzles are always interesting and well-thought out by the designers. On screens where you are required to solve a puzzle, random battles are disabled (VERY nice feature because the slightest distraction could completely mess up your chances at solving THESE puzzles). Finally, the way the puzzles a re rigged, they make it difficult to carry on, but after you solve the puzzle, it is easy to get back out. This is hard to explain but anyone who has played the game knows what I am talking about.

These games are just a couple examples of what I consider the two extremes in dungeon design. Hope these examples help.

Pretty much hate how dungeons are handled, like a gun range or duck hunt.
I favor settings, not dungeons. For instance, a concentric catle would be an excellent dungeon, instead of the 90 odd layers of twists and turns. Add in a wine celler, a few stories... Remember, it is always easier to build up than down.

As a side note, in Connecticut, there is a real dungeon. Old caves or mines I think were used as a prison during the Civil war. If you live in New England, check it out, it is in Granby CT.

quote: Original post by haro A prime example of a well done RPG, I think, is basically the entire Might and Magic saga..

A few comments on MM series:

MM6: The final four castles (where you have to get those memory crystals) are ridiculously long and tiring. Small ones are OK though.

MM8: Some dungeons are too short, it took the fun away.

Always make a dungeon that makes sense. I mean, don''t make a Kobold''s Den like a castle. Do not make a castle like a mansion either. Do not make a mansion like an underground cave.

I don''t think there is a definite length how long a dungeon should be. Take Zelda as an example. The dungeons are not large and full of monsters, they can be considered small, but very challenging. They are designed in such a way that you need to go through room X a couple of times before you meet the boss.

I''m infuriated that in all this discussion of centralized massive dungeon complexes, nobody has mentioned Super Metroid 3. Most incredible puzzle-based 2D platformer of all time. ''Nuff said.

I haven''t played Metroid Prime yet, because I bought a PS2 and won''t shell out another hundred bucks for non-PC hardware, but I''ve heard that it''s actually just as good. I want it.

Puzzles, puzzles, and more puzzles. More importantly, weaker enemies from early in the game only take a second to kill once you have the really good equipment. You can practically kill them without thinking about it. One of the few big problems I have with menu-driven RPGs is the legnthy process of moving from the "field screen" to the "battle screen" and back, and the fact that your big attacks will often have obnoxious thirty-second cinematics. In short, you can''t breeze through the battles that aren''t worth your time, and that''s annoying.

"Ph''nglui mglw''nafh Cthulhu R''lyeh wgah''nagl fhtagn!" - mad cultist, in passing

Earthbound had a nifty solution to that. Once the critters became easy enough you could kick their asses in 2 seconds flat, you didn''t even need to fight them. As soon as you ran into them, it''d just pop up a screen saying "you won, here''s your xp, blah blah" and that was it.

Man, I wanna play that game again. If only our copy still saved...

I rather like the way Dark Cloud did it. You have a big, dark, scary dungeon and you have to go down and fight stuff and try to avoid being killed at every turn and try and keep your sanity amidst the choking darkness and the horror of it all! Sounds like many other titles, but Dark Cloud was a little bit different (and I therefor enjoyed it much more than it's million other counter-parts). In other games I'm cast into the depths of hell to fight off hundreds of denizens of evil. Why? Because they're trying to kill me. Let's review: Your mission: Survive. Why? To...survive. Not a whole lot of incentive there. Dark cloud, on the other hand, gave you a safe haven where you could reside in, where none of the baddies could hurt you. A place where you could feel safe and collect your berrings. Again, nothing special, but quite appreciated. I enjoy a break every now and then and be given a reminder of what it is I am trying to save. Now what did make dark cloud special was that it gave you some real incentive for playing. Instead of just hurling you into a dungeon, replying when asked why by feeding you the infinitely wise parental logic of "Because I said so!" Dark Cloud gives your quest meaning. For you see, you collect pieces and parts of your little city so that when you return to the surface you may help rebuild the town and make it a better place for you and all your buddies to live...YAY! Sounds a little corny, but the game was very much enjoyable because it gave me a reason to don my sword, clench my teeth, and go charging into almost certain death. And it let me know that my efforts were not in vain. I was accomplishing something, something which I, myself, could reap the benefits of, as I built my house near a lovely grove of trees and by a very graphically impressive river.

Now to steer the course a little bit closer to your topic, dungeons are fine. There is nothing wrong with them. However, you should give your player a little motivation for being there. Preferably something a little more substantial than "Go save the princess!" Something the player wants to do. Otherwise you are sending him into the depths of hell for no good reason at all (all work and no play). This is quite a moral killer and you want the player to keep coming back for more and to feel good about himself. This is, after all, a form of entertainment and relaxation.

[/endRant]

When you find yourself in the company of a halfling and an ill-tempered Dragon, remember, you do not have to outrun the Dragon...

[edited by - CyberSlag5k on July 24, 2003 2:50:11 PM]