Below is a concept for a Space Dog Fight game. I'll start off by saying I have no skills in programming, nor am I saying that I want to program this game, but I am looking for ideas on this paper as to what you think, would it be fun, what should I add, what you would like to see in the game etc. etc. Also if this is in the wrong forum for this discussion please let me know and I'll try to move it. (No flames please, but constructive criticism is always welcome) The following is a game concept; please feel free to make comments where appropriate. Please if you do, make a quote of what you’re commenting on. This game is set in the future…and is mainly a space combat MMO with some RPG elements. It is NOT however a space based RPG like EVE or Earth and beyond. Its designed to be a combination of action and strategy. A war rages across the cosmos. It started when the Valkier empire made an invasion into Terran space. The war has been raging for about 150 years both sides are about equal in territory controlled. Then from out of nowhere a new group, the Laredo, have started harsh attacks on both sides and seem intent on wiping them both out of galactic existence. Teams. Terran Alliance- An alliance of many races (decidable at character creation) formed under the ideals of American philosophy Player guilds are known as Corporations. Valkier Empire- A warrior empire made up of the Valkier. The empire grows by making constant war. Player guilds are known as Sects. Laredo- A new entry into the war, but not truly new to the area. At the beginning of the war a large battle between the Terrans and the Valkier nearly wiped out the population on a small world. The survivors left to uncharted space where they ran across the remnants of an ancient empire. Using technology found there, they have rebuilt themselves as an army bent on revenge. Player guilds are known as Clans. Nuetrals- In a war like this true neutrals are not existent. Nuetrals in this game are not fence sitters, but are out casts from each of the teams and form up a fourth group of people that are free to roam around the galaxy as they see fit, acting as merchants that can run between empires, mercenaries that can be hired by any of them, Pirates, or even spies. Player guilds are called whatever they want. Nuetrals are not a team in and of themselves. J Travel Travel is made by way of jump gates. Jump gates are used extensively by all groups to make instantaneous travel between sectors of the galaxy. Rumors also exist of worm holes that have unsteady starting and stopping points….if you find one take it at your own risk. Local semiwarp drives allow for fast travel inside sectors. Large capital ships are the only ships capable of making warp jumps into other sectors without help of jump gates or worm holes. Guilds This game is run by guilds. Guilds are able to make warfare on each other inside of a team, but they gain NO money from it. People only gain money from warring with either neutrals who attack them first or from fighting enemy teams or from completing sales of merchandise (neutrals only). Nuetral guilds are able to fight whoever they want for xp. Large guilds of 200 plus people on one of the three teams are able to purchase capital ships for large scale assaults. Smaller guilds and nuetrals must make due with fighters. Guilds are able to place stations to help secure the area they control. Money in the game all goes to the guild, the guild uses it to purchase ships and maintain bases, and to buy enemy technology off of neutrals. Bases and Stations_(deployables) Deployment bases- These are the only bases that can guilds can buy ships from. Also available here are the matter-energy bots that can be used to build other bases. Each empire has one main deployment base that all players can purchase ships from. It only sells up to mid level ships. Deployment bases provide small weak snub fighters for free. (Think tie fighter) Player bought deployment bases must be placed near a planet and. Sensor bases- Sensor bases provide scanning ability in a sector and will sound a system wide alarm when it picks up enemy ships. Upgrades to this base increase the scanning range of the base. Repair bases- Though ships can land at any base to log out, they can only repair their ships at repair bases. These become important staging grounds from which to launch attacks. Upgrades to this base provide more docks for repair and faster repairs to ships. Weapons platforms- Weapons platforms can be placed near bases to provide extra protection from attacks. They can also provide protection around the entrances to jump gates. Upgrades to this deployable increase their firepower and armor. These require no supplies to maintain if deployed within a certain distance of either a station or a gate. However if deployed at say the entrance to a path through a mine field then they do require supplies of batteries to maintain. Mine Layer- Mine Layers are robotic ships that will mine an area with mines. Players choose the density and area to mine and then purchase the number layers required to place the mines. There are no upgrades. Requires no supplies to maintain. Scientific research stations- Scientific research stations are required to obtain the ability to upgrade other installations past a certain point. No upgrades. Capital Shipyard- Required for building a capital ship. No upgrades. Storage Depot- Holds large amounts of imported supplies. Upgrades to the storage depot increase its storage capacity. All stations require an influx of supplies from the home base of each team. The only exception to this is the deployment station which gets all the supplies it needs from the planet it is stationed by. If a station becomes unsupplied it will simply cease functioning. Combat Combat is real time action. Controls are done either by mouse or by joystick in combination with the joystick. Fast and furious combat is the rule, as you try to steer your ship better than the other person to get off either your lasers or your missiles. Each of the three teams has an advantage over the others guns and shields however can be bought off of neutrals. Each team also has a technological secret that cannot be bought. Terrans- Terrans weapons have a higher rate of firepower, but lack any real punch. They do however have holographic technology that will create a holographic ship next to them that confuses enemy sensors thus giving them an apparent advantage in numbers, and enemies an extra target to shoot at. Higher level ships provide more targets. Valkier- Valkier weapons are all power. Their guns have a low rate of fire but are the most powerful of the three races. Their ships come equipped with a cloak that allows them to sneak up on enemy fighters and then unload their firepower. Higher level ships provide a longer duration cloak and a faster cloak recharge. Laredo- Laredo have weapons that are in the middle of the road. Not as powerful as the Valkier, and not as fast as the Terrans. What they do have though is powerful shields. Shields of the Laredo are in high demand as they are at least half again as strong as either the Valkier or the Terrans. Laredo ships come equipped with a short range teleportation device which allows them to instantaneously move between two spots. If a target is selected that is in range of the teleportation the Laredo is able to actually teleport directly behind it. Higher level ships increase the range of the teleportation. There are two types of fighters in the game, two types of freighter, and two types of capitol ships, and one type of assault ship. Ships come in different levels that allow for stronger guns, shields and armor. Higher levels are faster and more maneuverable than lower level ones. However they do cost more. Capitol ships come in one level only. Fighters Light Fighter- Weak shields, low armor, 2-3 guns, 1 missile launcher, High speed and maneuverability. Heavy Fighter- Strong shields, good armor, 4-6 guns, 2 missile launchers, lower Speed and maneuverability. Freighters Intersystem- Large cargo space, capable of capable of semi-warp speed. Intersystem freighters can only dock with depot stations. Local- Local freighters have less cargo space than intersystem. Can only go ½ semi-warp. It can dock with any station. Capitol ships Carrier- Carriers are capable of holding 20 fighters and 5 torpedo ships. Capable of creating own jump hole. Battleship- Battleships have 12 anti snub fighter guns, and 3 large cannons able to lay waste to anything in its path. Each gun must be manned by a player, and has limited range of movement. Assault Torpedo boats- Torpedo boats are the only ships capable of launching powerful torpedoes. They are usually a little larger than a heavy fighter. They have low speed, low maneuverability, and no forms of self defense. As a final note, neutrals can only build deployment stations, weapons platforms and sensor stations. They have no unique ships but are able to buy ship plans from other teams. These come unequipped with the specials of each race. Gameplay This game is at its core a space dog-fighting game along the lines of Wing Commander. Its sort of Wing-Commander-meets-Planetside. Players can either go out and randomly kill the enemy as solo or group players. Or as I picture this game being primarily run by the guilds in the game, who have the power to build the bases, lay claim to territory and build capital ships, this game could actually turn into some high player space battles. Controls Controls can be done trough a joystick or a mouse and the keyboard. And can be fully customizable. Learning Curve/New vs Old player balance The learning curve in this game, as far as controls go is fairly linear. As a new player you start out with access to ships that do not use as many of the features as the more advanced ships. I.E. No power management, Comand and Control system access, and such. As players progress new ships you gain access to have more advance features, more hard points and more weapons. Higher level ships ARE more powerful than the ships that a new player has, but Balance should be that a new player still has a decent chance against a seasoned veteran if the skills are close to the same. Command features. This game has two levels of command features, the first is at the wing level, Allowing the wing leader to place waypoints, (hey space is big) designate targets, and the such. The second level of command is at the guild (or strategic) level. Allowing guild officers to build up and draw out battle plans for the rest of the guild to see and follow. Communications The communications system in this game is very robust in this game. The channels in this game are as follows. Open - Just a broadcast in the local area, open to all players, enemy and player alike. (this is the only player – enemy comms in the game) Wing - Chat to your wing of fighters. Outfit – Chat to your outfit. Secure – This is the most robust part of the comms system in the game. This allows you to open up a secure channel to one – ten people. This can be done via a command such as /tell [name]; [name]; [name] or through a series of button clicks. (Free mouse mode for clicking on menus and such) The button clicks are done by either pulling up a menu of local players in area and either clicking, or shift+ / ctrl + clicking on their names to select them and hitting open channel, or by simply targeting their ships and hitting open channel. Also available is the option to click on a squad leader, and then hitting a squad button, and opening up a channel to the entire squad. (reply’s can be done to a channel opened this way to either the originating player, or the originating players squad.) Now the one thing I envision here, and it can either be done with an outside program, like TeamSpeak, or through an in game system is that anything listed above through the normal chat window can be done via voice chat. I know this causes lag in a lot of games due to the amount of data that has to go through the game server. So I am open to ideas in this field. What do you think. Ideas presented here are free. They are presented for the community to use how they see fit. All I ask is just a thanks if they should be used. [edited by - robert4818 on August 29, 2003 9:57:13 PM]

It''s a very interesting idea, and I would at least try it out if it''s produced. I particularly like the idea of capital ships. However, the idea of multiple people controlling the capital ships, leads to the requirements of captains, pilots, gunners, etc. to all be on at the same time. Then there''s always the question of who owns the ships. And for carriers, does each fighter need to be controlled by a person? Or is it kinda like the Starcraft Protoss carriers, where they can do a general attack, or a focussed attack, but done by AI?

But I really like the idea. The best part is that it''s moving away from RPG style, which every MMOLG seems to be.

With capital ships (sort of like other games with multiple positions, the captain (main steering person) owns the capital ship. The carrier is used to transport a large force of players and player ships, not as a weapon in and of itself. The battle ships, while having guns and turrets on it to defend against incoming fighters, is primarily designed to take out other capital ships and bases.

There are some RPG elements in here that I would like to keep. But I would like to focus mainly on the empire building and action. Levels are there mainly as a learning tool. And the idea is that once you start up a character and reach a certain level, you can start other characters at or below that level. The main thing I would like to keep in there is the different roles of merchant, and nuetral, though these are not specifically a set of skills so much as a way of playing the game. The nuetral faction are where the Role Players will mostly end up since it does allow for the most individualized role playing allowing them to buy and sell any weapon to any other faction (not exactly sure how to do money yet), play as mercenaries, or even Pirates on the shipping lanes. In reguards to the shipping lanes I wonder if it would be better for a generic "cargo and supplies" or to have a more robust system of supplies i.e. parts, food, oxygen, water etc...

Another point of indecision is in player roles....everyone likes to play a specific role at times...medic, scout, ammo carrier etc... but how to fit this. I see two options.
A)Let people create a custom character with the ability to choose which skills he wants to fill certain roles.
B)Give everyone access to all roles and let them customize their ships whenever they go to the proper base to allow them to choose thier role dependant on thier mood.

Either one works. I think people will want to customize both their characters and ships in terms of skills.

I''m not sure how many people would actually want to be gunners. How about a system where turrets are manned by AIs, and the forward firing guns are controlled by the pilot. And as the gunners get more practice, they get more accurate, etc.

And for capital ships, are you looking at medium capital ships like in Star Fleet (Star Trek), or monstorous capital ships like in the Commonwealth (Andromeda)? Those are the two that come to mind for a contrast.

Who controls the capital ships? Can players take charge and pilot them? That would be a neat concept if you do that...although it''d take away from your focus of being a space fighter game. However, it might be boring to play a gunner on a capital ship, since all they will do is shoot. If on the other hand you give them other responsibilities, then it might detract the core essence of being a space fighter game.

As for the weapons on each side...I''ve never been too fond of how each side seems to have different weapons technologies. Traditionally and realistically throughout history, most sides have had pretty much the same guns and weapons...what differed was in how they were used or the overall quality. For example, in the Napoleonic era, Russians loved to mass their artillery in huge sections, and use it to blow holes in enemy lines. But their artillery was no better or worse than French, English or Austrian artillery (the russians have always had a fascination with amassing a lot of artillery and rocket support..even beyond the Napoleonic era). In WWII, German mg42''s were the scourge of infantrymen, but the browning 30cal machinegun wasn''t a slouch either. So I''d make it so that perhaps each side had the weapons of the other...but make one kind of weapon cheaper to account for their preference (explained by having more factories building those kinds of weapons).

For your fighter combat will it be 3d vector based movement? If so, it takes a lot more skill than playing space opera style movement (try plaing Independence War I or II). This might complicate the learning curve and scare off non-hardcore players or fans of space opera style combat.

Finally, why have limitations like Battleships can only have 3 guns or only torpedo boats can fire torpedoes (in WWII, most destroyers and quite a few cruisers had torpedo tube launchers...making even a lowly destroyer a potential threat to a battleship)? Call me a stickler for realism, but if you do things like that...make up some kind of plausible explanation why things are like that instead of just arbitraily putting it there for gameplay balance. The difference between a good game and a great game is making everything consistent and believable within the context of the world.

Anyway, overall the idea has potential...and if I were you I''d not try to focus on just fighter combat, but any Naval position. Since you''re going to have capital ships, you may as well make that as interesting as playing a space fighter. And that would make it a unique style of gameplay, giving it a leg up on other games.

Ohh, one last thing...flesh out the game world and background as much as possible. For me, the atmosphere and background makes or breaks the game (I''d rather have an interesting world with so-so gameplay, than cool gameplay that has a ridiculous background and origin....my mind needs the background there as the foundation for the gameplay).

quote: Who controls the capital ships? Can players take charge and pilot them? That would be a neat concept if you do that...although it''d take away from your focus of being a space fighter game. However, it might be boring to play a gunner on a capital ship, since all they will do is shoot.

I''ll expand a little bit on the capital ships here. A capital ship is a large ship produced by a Guild by spending a large amount of resources on it. It is not a ship that can easily be bought by a solo player. Someone in the guild will then take control of the ship for piloting purposes. Capital ships are the only ships capable of producing thier own jump gate as the engines required for this are too large for snub fighters. Captial ships are large, slow, and very heavily armored. My vision is for them to be primarily used for assaults on opponents bases as they can jump in providing little warning that they are coming. As they are used for assault purposes you would want someone manning the anti-snub guns for the purposes of protection. A capital ship is not intended for solo play, but is truly intended for a full on guild vs guild assault, hence the number of people required to man one.

quote: As for the weapons on each side...I''ve never been too fond of how each side seems to have different weapons technologies. Traditionally and realistically throughout history, most sides have had pretty much the same guns and weapons...what differed was in how they were used or the overall quality.

While this is for the most part true in technological terms, The way its applied to build a weapon can vary drastically. Look at WWII Pacific Theatre. Japanese planes were faster, more manueverable, but had little to no armor. US planes were heavier, slower, but had a ton of armor. US won by applying team tactics while the japanese pilots were going solo. Early tank designs were vastly different in terms of armor, speed, and power. It all depends on what the countries idea is on what it needs for its weapons to be better than the enemies. (For the most part the US was build it fast and overwhelm the enemy..US WAS THE ZERG). Each side has its own philosophy on what makes a better fighting machine, one believes in more power per punch, the other believes in massive ammounts of firepower, while the last one just believes that protection is the basic fundamental. The way it should work out is that the Terrans and the Valkier deal about the same damage/second to each other. One just wants to do it all at once, and the other would rather ping you to death rather quickly. The way the Laredo team is balanced is that they deals slightly less damage/second as the other two, but thier extra Shields mean that they should take about the same % of damage as they deal to the other faction. (couple this to the nuetrals who have access to all the factions weapons and shields and can then sell it to opposing teams to put on thier ships and it all evens out pretty nicely in theory...)

quote: For your fighter combat will it be 3d vector based movement? If so, it takes a lot more skill than playing space opera style movement (try plaing Independence War I or II). This might complicate the learning curve and scare off non-hardcore players or fans of space opera style combat.

i''ll admit i''m not sure what your talking about...from what I can tell your talking more about real physics vs easier controls. I prefer controls similar to the games such as Freelancer, starlancer, Wing commander...where it is pretty easy to control the game...i''m guessing that would be the space opera style, I''m not really into making the whole game feel like you have to have a degree in flight to be able to play it.

quote: Finally, why have limitations like Battleships can only have 3 guns or only torpedo boats can fire torpedoes (in WWII, most destroyers and quite a few cruisers had torpedo tube launchers...making even a lowly destroyer a potential threat to a battleship)? Call me a stickler for realism, but if you do things like that...make up some kind of plausible explanation why things are like that instead of just arbitraily putting it there for gameplay balance. The difference between a good game and a great game is making everything consistent and believable within the context of the world.

Well I haven''t actually worked too hard on capital ships, except to say that I would like them to be in the game. But be hard to come by. Capital ships should be hard enough to come by that you don''t want to waste the resources to build one that you just take it out for an everyday jaunt, but not so expensive that you don''t want to waste the money on them at all. Capital ships will be a target in any battle, guns on them could be AI controlled but I would much rather have people wiling to man them since most of the time (maybe) a person is smarter than the AI. Capital ships are big and overall bulky. Imagine basically us naval ships going agains speed boats that have heavy machine guns and anti-ship cruise missiles on them. This is the reality of capital ships in the game i picture. They are great for going up agains other capital ships and bases. As for torpedo ships, you could put them on the fighters, but they would only be able to hold like one of them. Think of them in terms of bombers in present day. Bombers are specially designed to drop lots of bombs on target. A fighter though capable of carrying them are sort of ill equiped to do so. As for a the battle ship carrying torpedo''s there really is no need the large guns on a battle ship can do nearly as much damage and have a higher fireing rate. As for carriers, carriers today have little in the way of protection, they rely on the ships around them, AND on the deployed air wings for most of its protection.

quote: And for capital ships, are you looking at medium capital ships like in Star Fleet (Star Trek), or monstorous capital ships like in the Commonwealth (Andromeda)? Those are the two that come to mind for a contrast.

I''ve never watched andromeda so I''m not sure what size your talking about. As it is, my concept is probably closer to middle size. The idea is for capital ships in this game to be sillilar in scope to the battleships and carriers of WWII.

Another question comes to mind, This has to do with size of areas.

We all know that space is full of well emptyness (please no long discussions on dark matter or other tiny particles that float around space...this is in practicality)

The problem is how much empty space do you keep in a "zone" of this game. You have to balance empty space and content so that the zone does not seem empty, but also does not seem crammed with stuff. How do you find this balance...is it basically through trial and error?

Second How much memory does "empty space" take up in a map. Do one area eat up alot of extra memory if the zones have 3 times the ammount of empty space than another area, or do areas that have about the same amount of "stuff" in them just spaced drastically different, take up about the same amount of space.

Example if a map used the same components but spaced them farther does it take up alot more memory.

-x--------x vs --------x-------------------------x where - is empty space and x is content

Any suggestions for features and other things in this game would be appreciated.

if you use a matrix base storage (which take less calculation ressource) it will because each cell is currently a memory space then the number of object is not really a matter (it''s like a cell state but it consume large amount of memory), but if you use coordinate calculation it the same how big is the space and only the number of object matter and also how deep is the coordinate variable (1 octet or 2?? for ex)
the more deep is the coordonate the more accurate or big will be the space (but not big and accurate the same time)

well i''m still using 4ko computer with far less cpu, i tend to use matrix because it''s easier to make smart ai with environment aware and good communication ability but in restricted area (100x100 cell mostly), when coordonate provide less smart possibilty (due to cpu consumation) but free the amount of memory

well i think i can use a mixed system where each cell is a zone where coordonate are use

i''ll move soon on faster machine and i think i have already very optimized code to rule some great things

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

ok cool. how does the game look in general?