quote: Original post by RolandofGilead
TSwitch, good points, I'd love to see how smart you are with a stable, normal mental condition

??? That was normal... sadly.

quote: btw has anyone actually responded to the second question, what to do when the story ends?

MMORPG Commandment #1:
Thou shalt not wipe a player's character(s) information, under penalty of pain of having your testicles removed with a spork.

People don't take kindly (this is from personal experience) to having their work wiped out.

Best bet in this case is, for the next story/episode, to have different roles for each general level of characters. Low level characters could gather items or serve as cannon fodder/nurses in PvP battles. High level characters could go into more dangerous places or be the true warriors in the PvP battles.

God help you if you think that wiping characters will make people stay longer. Of course, NOT wiping characters means people will get to that highest possible level (either imposed by the game or by human will). That's not a problem, so long as you keep those high levels entertained. Don't, and they'll get bored and leave. But pissing off your customers will get you out of a job faster.

I wouldn't suggest having people pay on a per-story basis. If the story lasts too long, you aren't going to make money. If the stories are too short, you're going to be working your freakin' tail off making up new ones. Just have a per-month, bimonthly or whatever period for a subscription and make reasonably long stories, ones that take at least a month or two.

I don't know why you would consider ending the game itself. This goes along with the whole "don't wipe characters" thing. I don't think many people would want to play a game that is over as soon as you finish the story. That's called a single player game. You made a persistent world only to have it end ?

[edited by - TSwitch on July 8, 2003 11:48:53 PM]

CpMan, couldn't follow

Ronixus, interesting, thank you for your post

TechnoGoth, don't worry, I always code with that mindset.
Lasting effects will indeed be lasting.
You've actually partly hit upon how the game's story develops as well(single and MMO). New lands means new peoples means new desires means new stories. With that insight may I extend the sentiments I extended to thelurch, 'someone with insight! *sniff* *cry* are you working on anything? would you like to?

TSwitch, I'm glad you posted, it saved me from typing and trying to explain a couple of things. Same sentiments, blah blah blah blah

quote: Original post by TSwitch

quote: btw has anyone actually responded to the second question, what to do when the story ends?

MMORPG Commandment #1:
Thou shalt not wipe a player's character(s) information, under penalty of pain of having your testicles removed with a spork.

People don't take kindly (this is from personal experience) to having their work wiped out.

Best bet in this case is, for the next story/episode, to have different roles for each general level of characters. Low level characters could gather items or serve as cannon fodder/nurses in PvP battles. High level characters could go into more dangerous places or be the true warriors in the PvP battles.

Good idea. In the single-player version, the episodes are at least one generation apart(finally justification for starting out with no powers even though you killed a god in the previous title).

quote: I wouldn't suggest having people pay on a per-story basis. If the story lasts too long, you aren't going to make money. If the stories are too short, you're going to be working your freakin' tail off making up new ones. Just have a per-month, bimonthly or whatever period for a subscription and make reasonably long stories, ones that take at least a month or two.

That is indeed the possible plan. Except, remember this was originally a single-player story, translated to MMO. I was going to make each episode last a year at least(4 total).edit: last a year for the MMO version, single-player takes as long as events happen.

quote: I don't know why you would consider ending the game itself. This goes along with the whole "don't wipe characters" thing. I don't think many people would want to play a game that is over as soon as you finish the story. That's called a single player game. You made a persistent world only to have it end ?

[edited by - TSwitch on July 8, 2003 11:48:53 PM]

There's the rub, I wouldn't make it persistent only to have it end, I would make it persistent so that instead of everyone enjoying it by themselves, everyone could enjoy it with everyone else. That's the point of doing it.

The real problem with the ending as it is, is that I don't know what happens next.

Also, I think this would greatly clarify things. Story may be a misnomer. There is a world. There are major events taking place in that world. You are a person in that world. That is all. Naturally you are guided toward these events cause it would suck to be out adventuring when all of a sudden the world gets destroyed.

[edited by - RolandofGilead on July 9, 2003 1:24:25 AM]

quote:
Also, I think this would greatly clarify things. Story may be a misnomer. There is a world. There are major events taking place in that world. You are a person in that world. That is all. Naturally you are guided toward these events cause it would suck to be out adventuring when all of a sudden the world gets destroyed.

But what if it just changes when an ''episode'' in the world''s story has ended and a new one has begun?

Infinity isn''t just a fancy title BTW

- Christopher Dapo ~ Ronixus

quote:
thelurch, someone who understands!, oh my goodness, *sniff* *cry* I think I love you, are you working on anything? would you like to?

Eeeewwwwww!! Stay back!! Stay back!!! I''ve got garlic and I''m not afraid to use it!!

I have a couple of stuff I work on, on weekends. I''m a bit wary of internet projects though as my timetable makes it difficult to keep up. You can email me though.

Back to topic:
About ending the game. I was going to suggest two options but one of them has already been discussed, ie the world doesn''t have to end but you could have new events constantly creating new stories (e.g. a new nation sails across the sea from a distant continent and now joins in the battle).

But you could also actually have something like different stories running on different servers and everytime a story ends it simply restarts (perhaps with a slight randomisation so people who have played before don''t instantly know where Tswitches tower is ). The player keeps paying his monthly fee and can join any story he wants preferably within a couple of weeks of it''s starting (You could let them start late but you should warn them that they might be at a slight disadvantage). I tend to lean towards having them restart from a blank slate every time. So that it''s more like a single player game with lots of players. I think players will be less worried about losing their characters they''ve been working if they are well informed right from the beginning (Alphacentuari is a one player game but I think it has some aspects which might apply here)
Alternatively you could let them keep thier characters and have stories which are tailored for different character levels. So each story should have a maximum character level allowed to join (course if a level one character wishes to try out a level 25 story who are we to complain - although you might want to have a minimum level as well so that the player has something to look forward to, also it''s possible that he won''t have any fun and will blame the game design)

Also I think a year is a bit too long for a story. Remember each story is defined by a single theme (a main plot) once that comes to an end whatever sub plots were being dealt with get cut off wherever they are (if the world is destroyed no one will be too worried about becoming the most famous carpet maker ever). If one theme drags on too long people may begin to lose interest. But our goal is to give as many people as possible the sense of accomplishment that comes with finishing a game. That''s what will bring them back

Some of this stuff may go against standard gaming norms but I think as long as the player knows what they are in for and always have the choice to control thier destiny in the game (whether they decide to use it or not) they will love it.

Oh and Tswitch

quote:
You don''t want one country to get an Obelisk of Uber Killx0ring in the middle of the capitol with which they can smite an entire civilization just by rubbing the tower with a kitty cat.

This is not really a problem, the other country will just set a billion credit bounty of every dead kitty cat delivered to them .

---------------------------------------------------
There are two things he who seeks wisdom must understand...
Love... and Wudan!

Ok, so you have global events in the world, where every participates and when they''re over, they''re over. Otherwise, you''ve just described something like a quest.

I guess I can''t see what kind of stories you''d have that would work both in single player mode and MM mode where lots of people can work on it. If you take the single player game over to MM, you''ve got simple little quests because you took an event intended for one person to complete and put it in a system of thousands of people. If you take MM events and put them into SP, how can you scale it? If the online version had the players fending off an Orc invasion... how can one level 10 barbarian stand a chance? Alot of AI help?

quote: Original post by Ronixus
But what if it just changes when an ''episode'' in the world''s story has ended and a new one has begun?

Infinity isn''t just a fancy title BTW

- Christopher Dapo ~ Ronixus

Because I hate Wizards of the ****ing Coast and what they did to Magic, having to keep up with new expansions and rules all the ****ing time. rant rant rant rant
Where am I?
Oh, yes, well I suppose these are very different formats, and the point of an MMO is that you keep on paying every month. Still, if this is successful I could hire writers. Or, even cheaper, I can let players write plot changes. (I''m a cheap bastard.)

quote: Original post by TSwitch
Ok, so you have global events in the world, where every participates and when they're over, they're over. Otherwise, you've just described something like a quest.

That's exactly how it works, both versions.
This forum seems to have a short memory.
Look back at all those threads about dynamic MMORPGs and quests created not by designers but by the conditions presented in the game world.

quote: I guess I can't see what kind of stories you'd have that would work both in single player mode and MM mode where lots of people can work on it. If you take the single player game over to MM, you've got simple little quests because you took an event intended for one person to complete and put it in a system of thousands of people. If you take MM events and put them into SP, how can you scale it? If the online version had the players fending off an Orc invasion... how can one level 10 barbarian stand a chance? Alot of AI help?

Why is it that no one trusts me when I say it could work as either or? It distracts from my purpose.

Really, the point was what happens when what I've written runs out and how do I handle the mechanics of adding these major events?

Okay, the story is more than just the events. It's about how there is a faction fighting for every outcome of these events. See? If it's SP then it's a sandbox. If it's MMO, then everyone simply plays in the same sandbox.

thelurch,
internet projects, yeah, I'm wary too
time scale, mmmm, not really, think about how the break up of the Soviet Union has affected politics,
and even better(but I don't know how to apply this particular change to my story) think about the Protestant Reformation.
World-altering events take time to proliferate.

edit:
#define KITTY_CAT_BOUNTY 1000000000

[edited by - RolandofGilead on July 10, 2003 2:59:10 AM]

edit2:

quote: Look back at all those threads about dynamic MMORPGs and quests created not by designers but by the conditions presented in the game world.

Now I realize why I've been hesitant to join Planetside or Dark Space(darkspace.net). It's combat without purpose, which I enjoy immensely, but not if I have to pay for it or feel an obligation to play. I'd rather do occasional multiplayer or have a mission editor. I have lots of games with mindless violence as an option but I don't play everyday, I'd get bored if I did, thus my subscription would be underused and thus not worth the money. OMG, this facet of gaming might actually deserve a post. Should I take this opportunity to actually post something good? Nah.

[edited by - RolandofGilead on July 10, 2003 3:07:21 AM]

Heh, the musings of a tired man.

I''ll sum it up:

1) A "Dungeon Master" for the MMORPG universe who directs a storyline, messes with the character, etc. according to his will, giving main characters who he might pick, tasks, etc.
2) A computer program backing him up filling in the story for the rest of the people.


Gamedev for learning.
libGDN for putting it all together.
An opensource, cross platform, cross API game development library.

quote: Original post by TSwitch
Ok, so you have global events in the world, where every participates and when they''re over, they''re over. Otherwise, you''ve just described something like a quest.

Consider the main plot line like a global quest which every player has the opportunity to affect in one way or the other and whose outcome will affect the whole world.
E.g. The dark Lord of the nether regions is about to rise again.
Whether or not any particular player decides to help prevent (or assist) this he knows that if the dark Lord does finally rise the world will be destroyed and the game will end. Alternatively if the dark lord is destroyed they will be widespread rejoicing and the game will end.
There will be hundreds of quests and subquests most of which will be aimed at helping or hindering the main one.

So it becomes similar to a single player game with an open structure (e.g. black and white or Alphacentuari)

As for actually having the same game capable of being able to work both as single player and MMO you''ll probably be walking a rusted razor''s corroding edge, ...a couple of miles long.

AS for the timetable. I was actually refering to 3 months of real time (game time will probably run significantly faster). The goal being you want as many people as started the game to be there when it finishes rather than getting bored with a story that stretches too long.
Plus there might be a small time gap between when the story actually ends and the game goes offline. That way people who weren''t online at the specific moment can still log on and see the result of thier actions (or inactions) for (hopefully) dramatic effects


---------------------------------------------------
There are two things he who seeks wisdom must understand...
Love... and Wudan!

quote: Original post by thelurch
So it becomes similar to a single player game with an open structure (e.g. black and white or Alphacentuari)

As for actually having the same game capable of being able to work both as single player and MMO you''ll probably be walking a rusted razor''s corroding edge, ...a couple of miles long.

Exactly, except for the razor thing.
Oh, come on, this is basically the same as Luctus''s ''MMORPG = Subscribed Single Player'' thread. Y''all loved that idea.

Also in that thread was the 10,000 NPC idea by TechnoGoth, I mention it cause that is one way this MMO might introduce characters into the world. Replace players with NPC''s and you have the single-player version.

I suppose I could have two versions.
Ooh, that could work, the non-MMO for people who don''t want the subscription.
Just like Neverwinter Nights, people could contribute stories to the single-player, with a charge for each download, and the authors getting a share(does NWN have that?). The world is large enough. Heck, contributed stories don''t have to be in the game world(story would allow for that). When incorporating them, though, you could take stuff back to the game world and the game could somehow insert clues and links to the game world in the contributed stories. Plot leakage won''t matter either. Everyone''s story is different according to how they play. Freaking fantasitc!

I still have no idea about the sequel. Still, a fun run.