Erik_N,

The HotSpot runtime environment was made available in 1.2.2 and has an option for incremental garbage collection which runs GC in much smaller chunks, reducing the pauses in interactive programs. It can be downloaded for 1.2.2 (get client, not server) and comes standard in 1.3. It also speeds up initial startup time and long running code. The downside is that you will have to require the client to use it for them to see any benefit, which eliminates any applet posibilities except for the Java 1.3 plugin. (Not much of an issue if you are distributing the runtime and game code on CD, to be run as an application...)

There are a lot of things in Java3D you can do to increase performance, compiling your scene graphs if they are static, careful setting of render attributes, etc, but in general, Java3D isn''t ready for games that are render intensive. A native binding API will give you stronger performance than Java3D, but cost you platform independence. They will also not bench as fast as their C / C++ counterparts, because JNI calls are slow. If you are rigid on a 3D game, weigh your options carefully.

I don''t want to disuade you if you are set on a 3D game. Any new games done in java are a good thing . I will say that making a ''visually pleasing'' 3D game in java is going to be an uphill battle all the way, a hill that is currently too high for *me* to climb.

ManaSink

Mmmm...only just stumbled onto this thread. Sounds very interesting. Java is certainly an excellent way to do platform indepenence; esp. if you dont need any real time graphics ...or rather, very high frame rates.

I started learning java um...6 months ago? but I''m interested in this project; I''ve been thinking about writing a game in java; but I keep getting side tracked by other projects.

I guess it depends; you game effort is, I trust _not_ an applet? I''m certainly hoping so, because thats more trouble than its worth (IMHO). If so, you can count me at least as an interested enhusiast. =P And if/when you need any, I do a fair amount of 2d/3d artwork.

Incidentally, I''m curious: wouldn''t it be better off to write your own 3D toolkit rather than use the java 3D? From what I''ve read its a) not very good at the moment (ie. fine but slow as) and b) not supported unless you actually download that bit; which most people haven''t.

THanks for telling me about the HotSpot JVM. I''ll look into it. I have seen links for it but like a dummy never checked it out.

ManaSink or anyone else, how far did you get with Java3D before considering it not good enough? And was speed the only reason?
The biggest problems I have are collision detection apperently doesn''t tell what part of the model hit. And I can''t find hardly any info about collision dection with this api. If I can figure this out I think I can make a decent game with this api.

Shadow Mint why do you say applet is more trouble then it''s worth? Applets a cool way to get people to look at your work, if your project is not commercial. Also it is only a couple extra lines to have your program run as a applet or application so that what I always do. If you want I''ll show you how. Also if you want to contribute art to my game that would be cool! It is a racing game and I need a lot of low poly stuff like houses, bridges, overpasses, parked cars, and other stuff to fill in the levels.

Hey I looked at GameFrame, looks cool but I want to do 3D right now. Where is some magician links? I found a article mentioning it by bill day, but he said it went out of bussiness(this was a year ago) any all links I found to the arcane site are dead. How is it better?

I just downloaded the newest version of magician a few weeks ago. It is odd that the site is dead. I think opengl.org had a post on it. You might want to go through the archived news and look for the link.

Since I am not pursuing any commercial direction, all the documentation and source will be 100% public. This should be about fortifying Java game development. Professionals can lend their expertise and newbies can give ideas and learn from getting involved. I would like to see *everyone* who is not working on something serious getting involved. (If you ARE in the middle of something, don''t set it aside, *FINISH* it, then help out!)

There are two game ideas I have been kicking around:

1) 2D Action/''RPG'' in the vein of Metroid, CastleVania, Abuse, etc. Gameplay should move fairly fast, to keep things exciting. The player controls an individual who battles through rooms of monsters obtaining power-ups and defeating various bosses. Multiple weapons, armor, items are a must. All monster types should have unique AI so they ''feel'' different and different tactics will need to be learned to defeat each. Multiplayer support would be a plus.

2) Multiplayer 2D Strategy/Shooter. The players control a ship and fly around on a large map. There are two main aspects to the game: Fast paced combat with other player/AI controlled ships and tactical structure building where locations can repair upgrade your ship, attack other players, etc. There would *not* be support for multiple troops, and harvesting of resources should be *much* less critical than in current RTS games, moving focus to ship-to-ship combat and defense. I am shooting for the furious combat of Star Control with more personalized ship configuration and stronger map/environment interaction due to tactical elements introduced via buildings and natural obstacles.

I have not put together a formal design document on either because I feel everyone who wants to contribute should be involved in the brain-storming before a design doc. is set. I don''t want to start something that no one else is interested in.

Some of the questions I''d like to get out of the way:

Will this tutorial be 3D or 2D?
2D. I am not against writting 3D games, but (IMHO) Java''s current strengths do not include strong 3D support. Java3D is not very mature, both DirectX and OpenGL make heavy use of JNI calls, DirectX ties the project to Win32, and 3D in general adds the heavy burden of explaining complex 3D concepts instead of fundamental game concepts. No one suggests starting with Doom. When everyone has the simple stuff(like their classpath ) down we can get to tougher stuff.

What graphics package will you be using?
I am planning on using Java2D and Swing. Yes, I could code one from scratch. Yes, I could use an existing package. Bottom line is that using Java2D and Swing will be fairly simple. There will be no need to reinvent the wheel, no need to work with native bindings, and reasonable support on multiple platforms. Since this tutorial is about *Java* game programming, I would like to stick to Java only. Perhaps a 3D tutorial using DirectX could be made down the line.

I also understand that using Java2 and Swing is reducing my support of applets running under current browsers. I will be designing the tutorial to run as an application or as an applet under the Java2 Plugin. My main objections against coding to Java 1.1.7 are the poor performance, lack of features, and usage of a buggy depricated version of Java.


*****
That being said, let''s get some feedback from you guys and get this thing rolling...

ManaSink

Did someone say Metroid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

joeG

Speaking of Java2 has there been any word of when the browsers are going to start supporting it in their VM?

War doesn't determine who is right, war determines who is left.

Edited by - Wrathnut on June 20, 2000 3:10:20 PM

Edited by - Wrathnut on June 20, 2000 3:11:42 PM

quote: Original post by Wrathnut

Speaking of Java2 has there been any word of when the browsers are going to start supporting it in their VM?

Never. Micros~1 doesn''t seem to want to support java anymore. Netscape 6 will have 1.3 (or at least mozilla will) and so will MacOS X. I know that''s not a browser but... Mac browsers seem to be stuck with 1.0 support (no support for Component.setSize()). But as long as micros~1 holds out you won''t be able to count on anything but a browser plugin.

No news about the tutorial? =)