Some readings gave me this idea for a magical system wich could solve some of the problems with magic in rpgs. Imagine a game world where everything has a common name and a "secret" magical name. Some names are generic while others are more specific eg. The lake of Nurn would have a Magical Name and there would be another name for all lakes. Magic would then be sentences in this magical language. Each Name would have a magical potential and novice would not be able to cast very complex spells. The magic user would have a list of the words he has discovered or learned and build sentences with this words. Magic users will spend most of their time looking for the lost name of a thing, so either exploring, divinating or browsing tons of books in a dusty library. Another possibility is that each character has a known name and a secret name, the later being used to cast spells related to this person, eg. a communication spell with the person... Magic is not anymore a financial resource but become knowledge as it should be... I would like some critics... please... "Between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis and the rise of the sons of Arius there was an age undreamed of..."

In a multi player game setting, you have to count on the fact that players are lazy and that information wants to be free. People will post word lists, effectively ruining the research aspect for people who like games ruined for them.

Information as a commodity needs a mitigating factor (uncontrolled, it''s tendency to spread is quite violent). In this case, my suggestion would be something along the lines of having the secret name uniquely keyed to the player. This provides a "secure" method of discovery. (ie, just because I found out what my secret word for my sword was doesn''t mean it''s the same as your secret word for it). If you do want the ability to share knowledge, then it would have to be done implicitly through the game rather than explicitly external to the game.

The other issue is the tediousness of discovery. It wouldn''t be condusive to adventuring to have to spend hours looking up the names of every type of creature you expect to meet along the way.

There''s a whole slew of interesting issues you could take advantage of, from dialetic mutations changing the magic''s effects to meme viriology affecting magic effectiveness (the more widespread the usage of the word, the less powerful the magic).

Thanks for the quick reply

The magic player would select the words from a list, not type them... Of course else it would be ruined by websites.

But having a world list for each player would be quite heavy, I think only a bit per word would be enough.

I like the idea of magic effectiveness reduced by usage. Someone mentioned in this forum that each area could have a magical reserve tapped out by spells, this could then be extended to all aspects of magic.

I dont understand meme viriology and the part about dialectic mutations though (sorry, english is not my native language)

As for the creatures names, it is not absolutely necessary, as you can just drop fire on it or such things...


"Between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis and the rise of the sons of Arius there was an age undreamed of..."

Vous parlez anglais plus meilleur que je parle français.

By "dialectic mutation" I meant that different people speaking the same basic words could have slightly different effects. It would be something similar to a person casting a spell in Flemish and another person trying to cast the same spell in Dutch. (I don''t know more about the different regions of France, or I would use it as an example here. )

Also, for a quick rundown on memes: Meme Central

Don''t give up on this idea - it has a lot of potential.

Dude, this is f***ing brilliant!

The only problem is scaling the strength of certain spells.
For instance, a fireball and the communication spell mentioned(probably telepathy). That communication spell will be pretty useless if only 25% of the words get through, but it can be scaled pretty easily by looking at the states of mind and the distance between caster and target and what information can be passed through(vague feelings, emotions, thoughts).

If you like stats, here''s another one, Rarity, basically the difficulty in trying to use a spell or meditation to find the name of something.


How are you feeling today, Lake of Nurn?
Wet.

Thanks Scaught, for the compliment and for the link. I have started to browse it, but it is quite a big topic...

As for the scaling problem of spells, I have some ideas :

-- 1. Modifying the look of something is easier than really modifying the object itself.
-- 2. Every part of the world has a mana reserve wich is tapped out by spells and which defines their conductivity. So say that you want to cast a spell to a long distance, you will have to put a lot of mana in it just so that it arrives.
-- 3. Moreover, the basic principle is that the things respond to what you say to them, so if they are out of voice distance, you have to specify the means through wich your voice will be carried to the target. ( Ho north wind, bring my words to my nemesis...)
-- 4. Modifying the mind of somebody will be one of the hardest things, so perhaps it will be preferable to use a messenger...
-- 5. Each magic user channels the mana of his surrounding environment, and the limitation his the fatigue then damages he gets by channeling too much mana through his body and mind.
-- 6. Grouping magical users to channel mo mana, but you have to transfer it to the head caster, so there is a little loss for the transfer.
-- 7. The magical user has to say the whole formula, so it might take him some time to cast a complex spell. Moreover, perhaps some form of poetry might be more effective, this one is not very clear yet, but it would be most rewarding I think.

For the tediousness of study, I think that magical user could begin after their basic training (the training itself being defined during the creation of the character).
So they would have quite a list of common magical names.
It is only for big challenges that they would have to spend time in libraries.
Of course divination would be more difficult for magical beings, but then a bit of history could help to find characters contemporary of the creature and then the mage could ask questions to them souls. Invoking the souls of historical characters would need that the world history be complete (but it is a requisite of my design).

Limiting the verbs available, can reduce somewhat the complexity of the system and make it manageable.


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"Between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis and the rise of the sons of Arius there was an age undreamed of..."

This is a really interesting idea. It could really result in a difference between general effect magic (dropping fire on it) and target-specific magic (using the thing's name in the spell).

So, would you have specific names for each entity, or would different classes of being have group titles? For instance, every fruitfly might be indicated by the name "drosophilia" (I think that's the genus name, but it's been a while), but the specific fruitfly on your pear might be named "Hank". So directing a spell toward "drosophilia" would dilute the spell and direct it toward every fruitfly within the caster's range, while pointing it a "drosophilia Hank" would just hit the one. I know you sort of mentioned this in your initial post in the Lake of Nurn example, but would every goblin have a specific name? How would you avoid repitition?

I'd like at least "people" (non-generic beings) to have individual names. It wouldn't be the same as their given name, of course, but if you want to heal your buddy, you need to know his "true" name in order to do it. With that information, divination spells could help you find him, and augmentation spells could make him super-tough.

Again, though, should magical names be reserved for important people? Maybe there could be a system by which each magical name is acquired through reincarnation. A character could be deemed not just to have a magical name but to have the magical signature of one of the first beings that the gods created. There could be maybe a few thousand people with magical names, and those names would be the names of ancient beings. It would be a little awkward, but it would cut down on the number of secret names that would be needed. And then you could bring in the classic concept of circular time passage and destiny.

As for finding out the names of things, the library would be a good start, but there must have been a way that the authors of those books learned it. I'd like to be able to either cast a spell that will reveal the name, or take them to a place, be it a temple, or an oracle, or the top of some mountain, and let them learn their name there. That way, you can really kick the crap out of a guy if you learn his name, and vice versa. You'd want all your party members to know your name, too, so that they could focus healing and augmentation spells on you without wasting any juice or accidentally helping out nearby baddies.

--Edits to make more sense.

[edited by - Iron Chef Carnage on January 12, 2003 1:43:11 PM]

Kabbalah, hey ? That sound like a cool idea
If you are not inspired by Kabbalah, then you might wanna research the roleplaying game called Nephilim (it''s a French game but it exists in English, and although I never played it I recall they use a magic based on names); you might also look up the legend of the Golem ?

For the difficulty of making a name list personalised for each player, it''s quite trivial really : there would really be a unique list, but it would be combined with something unique to the player (player''s name or some other unique thing) to generate that player''s list of names. (simply put, an object''s secret name is a function of the player''s unique ID and the object "real" secret name...)

IF you shout louder, does your spell get stronger ? And what about cursing ... hehehe, I remember an anime where the character cursed and the bad words turned into little creatures

I love the idea of poetry used to weave words into a spell

I''ll be sure to follow this thread as it''s something I thought about before and I''d love to see new ideas

Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

I think the most important concepts you have going for this idea (from your list) are numbers 1 and 4 - if only because they correspond with my areas of interest. (namely ontology, existence theory, and reality and its perception)

#4 has an interesting variation - that of controlling the mind of a target to either a) reveal knowledge of True names, or b) force that target to say the words to trigger magic effect - either the words you know (there by possibly revealing information to the unsuspecting caster in the process) or by concept, so only the words the target knows come out. Maybe this also has to be done in the presence of the original casters mana, so a messenger would be "charged" and sent on his way (unsuspecting?) and the trigger happens by the target reading a letter. How "fun" this would be in game-play would be questionable - but for background or away-from-the-player intrigue, it would be a handy device.

As for #1, illusion could be simplest form of magic - at low skill/experience the illusion would be flawed and easy to disbelieve (a fireball with no heat, a dragon that sounds as a chicken) but at higher levels you would be hard pressed to prove that the illusion isn''t real - and if you believe something is real, it might as well be real.

Even more interesting would be a form of magic based around perception, such that one could cause the "reality" of objects to be questioned. (ie, if everyone became convinced that something truly didn''t exist, it actually would cease to exist) Modelling this level of group-think would probably come across as confusing at best - but maybe it''s basis enough for an anti-magic.

The problem of targetting still has the issue of sheer volume of words. It might be prudent to make action words for intention - generics for "that thing" or "what I see" - reserving the truly powerful spells for True names.

(I could go on for hours - unfortunately, I''m in the middle of crunch mode and have a game to ship. Keep up the great work!)

Does anyone watch Charmed or Sabrina: The Teenage Witch?